Author Topic: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling  (Read 75496 times)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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That will happen right about the time we stop relying on big brother 'Merica to save us every time and protect our waters and airspace on our own.

When did the US 'save us' and from whom?

Odd, I have never heard of the US patrolling our soverign airspace or territorial waters, or bumped into them while I was doing that.

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2015, 10:53:00 »
Oh please. If you think that we are single-handedly protecting Canadian territory without relying on any U.S. Military resources....

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2015, 14:57:05 »
 Well there is that whole NORAD thing which was amended to include maritime approaches.  Anything else to add other than smug vague comments?

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Offline MilEME09

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2015, 16:05:57 »
ahem*

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=fb21432a-1d28-415e-b323-ceb22d477732&k=69493

old article but still valid, and I highly believe the US regularly patrols the arctic with sub's, cause we can't.
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Offline Technoviking

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2015, 06:14:04 »
[back to the original topic]
In spite of all the grandiose sabre rattling in Moscow, the Baltics, etc, I have a feeling that Russia is pulling a "Verdun" on this one.  But not "Verdun as it happened" but rather "Verdun as it was supposed to happen".  In short, they send in just enough and do just enough to get our attention.  Then we over react and send in much, much more. 

Witness us, little old Canada.  Of our meagre CF 18 air fleet, one half of our deployed strength is in Eastern Europe, along with Army sub units and so on. US forces are exercising there, and there are calls for more permanent presence, especially in the Baltics.

So, if that were the case, that Russia is only dripping in enough for us to deploy to Eastern Europe in strength, what ought to be our response?  Especially since the aim would be to open up something (or somewhere) else?
So, there I was....

Offline Ostrozac

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Odd, I have never heard of the US patrolling our soverign airspace or territorial waters, or bumped into them while I was doing that.

But I do remember when Canadian jets patrolled US airspace -- back when the entire F-15 fleet was grounded.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/canadian-fighter-jets-temporarily-fill-in-for-u-s-air-defences-1.635315

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2015, 07:12:00 »
[back to the original topic]
In spite of all the grandiose sabre rattling in Moscow, the Baltics, etc, I have a feeling that Russia is pulling a "Verdun" on this one.  But not "Verdun as it happened" but rather "Verdun as it was supposed to happen".  In short, they send in just enough and do just enough to get our attention.  Then we over react and send in much, much more. 

Witness us, little old Canada.  Of our meagre CF 18 air fleet, one half of our deployed strength is in Eastern Europe, along with Army sub units and so on. US forces are exercising there, and there are calls for more permanent presence, especially in the Baltics.

So, if that were the case, that Russia is only dripping in enough for us to deploy to Eastern Europe in strength, what ought to be our response?  Especially since the aim would be to open up something (or somewhere) else?
Good point - what do you see as THE prize for the Russians, then?
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Offline MCG

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2015, 07:28:56 »
I recall reading in an article that we ended the Baltic air mission about a month ago.

Offline Technoviking

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2015, 09:16:07 »
Good point - what do you see as THE prize for the Russians, then?
I don't know.  Maybe pulling China (who owns a significant portion of our debt) away to their sphere?  :dunno:

I recall reading in an article that we ended the Baltic air mission about a month ago.

True.  But now we're sending trainers to Ukraine, and I think still participating in exercises in East Europe.

So, there I was....

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2015, 12:12:30 »
I don't know.  Maybe pulling China (who owns a significant portion of our debt) away to their sphere?  :dunno:

True.  But now we're sending trainers to Ukraine, and I think still participating in exercises in East Europe.

Maybe the question is:  What does  China get out of this?

Russian agression slows the Asian Pivot to China's advantage
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2015, 12:44:16 »
I don't know.  Maybe pulling China (who owns a significant portion of our debt) away to their sphere? :dunno:

True.  But now we're sending trainers to Ukraine, and I think still participating in exercises in East Europe.


In so far as China is concerned, Russia doesn't have a "sphere" of it own; the Chinese aim, I suspect, to dismember Russia and make the Asian parts of Siberia into independent client states (rather akin to Mongolia). The Chinese don't like the Central Asian Stans, but they don't want them tied to Russia, either. In China's mind, as far as I MIGHT understand it, Russia is a barbarian state that should be in China's sphere ... or Germany's.
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Online Thucydides

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2015, 15:36:44 »
While Russia may hope that *we* will overreact; I think they have not looked too deeply into the well to see just how depleted our actual resources and will to act have become. We are not sending in the Armies and the Fleets because we simply don't have enough and don't want to, really.

And even if they have assessed our military mettel, we are still putting the squeeze on the Russians in other ways. The economic embargoes hurt, and the collapse of oil prices is something they don't have a real counter for. I'm pretty sure a lot of Russians can see the writing on the wall if China really starts using their influence in the region, and turning Russia into a semi dismembered Chinese client state; this is directly opposite to the current (and very deep ) narrative of Russia's "Destiny" in the world system. A nation which views itself as the "bridge" unifying the East and the West, and becoming "the New Rome" is not going to take being roughly demoted to a Chinese vassal state very well at all.....
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2015, 17:31:09 »
While Russia may hope that *we* will overreact; I think they have not looked too deeply into the well to see just how depleted our actual resources and will to act have become. We are not sending in the Armies and the Fleets because we simply don't have enough and don't want to, really.

And even if they have assessed our military mettel, we are still putting the squeeze on the Russians in other ways. The economic embargoes hurt, and the collapse of oil prices is something they don't have a real counter for. I'm pretty sure a lot of Russians can see the writing on the wall if China really starts using their influence in the region, and turning Russia into a semi dismembered Chinese client state; this is directly opposite to the current (and very deep ) narrative of Russia's "Destiny" in the world system. A nation which views itself as the "bridge" unifying the East and the West, and becoming "the New Rome" is not going to take being roughly demoted to a Chinese vassal state very well at all.....


I agree that Russia "will not take it very well," but, please, tell me why China should not be in this position?


It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline S.M.A.

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #63 on: August 01, 2015, 12:02:49 »
Only 371$ for this upgrade?  ;D Got to love how certain press sources don't have proof-readers.

Defense News

Quote
US Army: Strykers Need Bigger Gun to Fight Russia

WASHINGTON — One of the most important US Army units in Europe — the Stryker-equipped 2nd Cavalry Regiment — is outgunned by its Russian counterparts, Army officials say, and needs a fast-track upgrade.

The Army staff in April approved a request from the unit's commander, Col. John Meyer, to fit a 30mm cannon on 81 of the infantry carriers, needed for it to engage similar units or light-armored vehicles. The Senate version of the defense authorization bill contains $371 for the Stryker lethality upgrade.

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Offline MCG

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2015, 13:26:27 »
So, Strykers will be upgraded to LORIT LAVs?

Offline S.M.A.

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Electronic Warfare: US Army lessons from Ukraine
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2015, 12:49:21 »
Russia's jamming ability emphasized:

Defense News

Quote
Electronic Warfare: What US Army Can Learn From Ukraine
By Joe Gould

WASHINGTON — The US military has for weeks been training Ukrainian forces in US tactics, but the commander of US Army Europe says Ukrainian forces, who are fighting Russian-backed separatists, have much to teach their US trainers.

Ukrainian forces have grappled with formidable Russian electronic warfare capabilities that analysts say would prove withering even to the US ground forces, which are nearly a decade behind. The US Army has also jammed insurgent communications from the air and ground on a limited basis, and it is developing a powerful arsenal of jamming systems, but these are not expected until 2023.

"Our soldiers are doing the training with the Ukrainians and we've learned a lot from the Ukrainians," said Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges. "A third of the [Ukrainian] soldiers have served in the ... combat zone, and no Americans have been under Russian artillery or rocket fire, or significant Russian electronic warfare, jamming or collecting — and these Ukrainians have. It's interesting to hear what they have learned."

Hodges acknowledged that US troops are learning from Ukrainians about Russia's jamming capability, its ranges, types and the ways it has been employed. He has previously described the quality and sophistication of Russian electronic warfare as "eye-watering."

Russia maintains an ability to destroy command-and-control networks by jamming radio communications, radars and GPS signals, according to Laurie Buckhout, former chief of the US Army's electronic warfare division, now CEO of the Corvus Group. In contrast with the US, Russia has large units dedicated to electronic warfare, known as EW, which it dedicates to ground electronic attack, jamming communications, radar and command-and-control nets.


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Offline MCG

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2015, 00:34:48 »
USAF to deploy F22s to Europe as the next display of resolution and support.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/u-s-sending-f-22-fighter-jets-to-europe-air-force-secretary-1.3202273

Offline S.M.A.

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2015, 20:35:55 »
Along with the A-10s that recently arrived in the Baltic states is another group of assets:

Reuters

Quote
U.S. military deploys drones to Latvia on training mission
Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:36pm EDT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military has deployed two MQ-1 Predator reconnaissance drones and 70 airmen to Latvia on a training mission as part of U.S. efforts to reassure European allies the United States is committed to their security, the Pentagon said on Monday.

The deployment of the MQ-1 Predators to Lielvarde Air Base in Latvia over the weekend was the first time the U.S. military has sent a detachment of drones to Latvia to participate in partner training, said Navy Captain Jeff Davis, a Pentagon spokesman.

The United States has stepped up partner training deployments to NATO allies in Eastern Europe since Russia last year seized and annexed the Crimean region of Ukraine, raising concerns that Moscow next might target a member of the Western alliance.

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Offline S.M.A.

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US Army defends high cost of Stryker upgrade
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2015, 12:49:57 »
So, Strykers will be upgraded to LORIT LAVs?

Here's more to answer your question:

AUSA 2015: Army defends high cost for up-gunned Stryker | IHS Jane's 360 - 13 October 2015
Quote
The army is working to up-gun 81 Strykers with 30 mm cannons on remote weapon systems and others with Javelin anti-tank missiles, a long-considered upgrade that was pushed through an operational need statement from the 2nd Cavalry Regiment based at Vilseck in Germany. Service leaders approved the plan in April and now testing and integration work remains.

The cost per system appears particularly high (about USD5 million per vehicle), and according to Heidi Shyu, the army's acquisition executive, this is partly schedule driven because it is through an urgent need statement that is seeking the upgrade as soon as possible. It is also for only 81 systems, so the limited quantity drives up per-unit costs. The price includes a design and integration element as well, she added.

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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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Offline S.M.A.

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US Army seeks Stryker capability beyond bigger gun
« Reply #69 on: March 02, 2016, 00:30:12 »
More on the above about the Stryker:

Defense News

Quote
Army Seeks New Stryker Capability Beyond Bigger Gun
By Jen Judson, Defense News 10:29 a.m. EST March 1, 2016

This story, first published at 9:39 a.m. on March 1, has been updated to include a link to the market survey posted to the Federal Business Opportunities website.

WASHINGTON — The Army is looking beyond carrying out an urgent request to equip Stryker units in Europe with a medium-caliber cannon by scouring the industry for capability upgrades, the Stryker Brigade Combat Team program manager said.

The service released a market survey Tuesday “intended to reach out to industry and involve them in the dialogue,” Col. Glenn Dean told a few reporters in an interview Monday. “What capabilities should we be considering beyond the things that were already sort of on our menu.”

The deadline to respond to the solicitation is April 1.


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Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Online CBH99

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2016, 00:39:19 »
Couldn't they just take the turret & gun system from the CV90 series, and install them on the Stryker?  Or take the turret we have on our LAV's, and simply upgrade the gun?

Already proven systems, not much of a need to design/test, etc.

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Offline MilEME09

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2016, 04:13:58 »
Couldn't they just take the turret & gun system from the CV90 series, and install them on the Stryker?  Or take the turret we have on our LAV's, and simply upgrade the gun?

Already proven systems, not much of a need to design/test, etc.

Biggest gun I've seen in that chassis is a 105mm, and it was a prototype mobile artillery unit. A 105mm gun in a direct fire role on a LAV chassis would be impressive, but the ammo would be limited, that said it would be very mobile, like stripping all the armour of a Leopard 1, and putting the energizer bunny in the engine.
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Offline ueo

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #72 on: March 02, 2016, 09:00:41 »
I seem to remember GM attempting to make the old Grizzly a DFSV in the early 90's. Good concept but the cannon's overpressure badly deformed the hull and would have been, in all likely hood, fatal to the crew. No further action was taken on the project and the vehicle was never considered in further R&D programs. The newer hulls are considerably more robust, but I'm not sure what the overpressure issues are. Doesn't one of the US forces have a variant in this class?
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #73 on: March 02, 2016, 10:12:35 »
I seem to remember GM attempting to make the old Grizzly a DFSV in the early 90's.

I doubt it was a Grizzly.  More likely a Cougar.  You would be safe in using the term AVGP.
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Offline S.M.A.

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #74 on: March 02, 2016, 13:03:20 »
Raptors permanently forward-deployed to Poland?

Aviationist

Quote
U.S. to permanently deploy F-22 Raptor stealth jets to Poland?
Mar 02 2016 -
By Jacek Siminski
Polish Łask Air Base might become a permanent home for the F-22 Raptor jets.

According to the Polish “Rzeczpospolita” Daily, that quotes the U.S. General David W. Allvin, Director, Strategy, and Policy, Headquarters U.S. European Command, the Americans may permanently deploy F-22 Raptor jets to Poland.

Rzeczpospolita claims that Allvin came up with an idea of reinforcing the Polish airbases with a U.S. presence instead of establishing a permanent US military infrastructure within the territory of Poland, which may violate the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe (CFE).

The idea, already proposed by the Pentagon, needs to be approved by the US Congress now.

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