Author Topic: Jeans & mass punishment? #2  (Read 26643 times)

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Offline Downhiller229

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #125 on: March 06, 2018, 14:21:14 »
This is a bit ridiculous... By the way don't forget that RMC grads are the model officers in the CAF...

I'm incredulous on two fronts. Mainly that some of those affected went to the media to complain. And two that these kid's lives are so strictly regulated. What happens when they get let loose into the wild and actually have to fend for themselves after they have had every waking moment of their existence planned for them down to their attire?

What's the incentive in going to that school anyway? From what I hear I wouldn't want to send my kids there?

For what it's worth I commend everyone involved with the school, it's an impossible task. It doesn't seem much maturity is being developed there... I guess to each his own.

The CAF strikes again with the amazing media portrayal, luckily we had the GBU-raft to balance this one out.

Offline MCG

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #126 on: March 06, 2018, 14:44:34 »

What's the incentive in going to that school anyway? From what I hear I wouldn't want to send my kids there?
Maybe it’s the free education with a pay cheque and four years earned toward a pension?

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #127 on: March 06, 2018, 14:48:29 »
Maybe it’s the free education with a pay cheque and four years earned toward a pension?
Nah, that's cray talk. I'd send my kids just for the fun of watching them run around in an organ grinder's monkey hat for four years. You can't buy memories like that.
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Offline Downhiller229

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #128 on: March 06, 2018, 15:38:49 »
Maybe it’s the free education with a pay cheque and four years earned toward a pension?

I'll rephrase that. Why go to RMC when you can go civy-U or better yet for pilots go to Seneca and be a captain at 20 years old.

The prestige doesn't impress anyone anymore, so why put yourself through that.

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #129 on: March 06, 2018, 15:48:04 »
I'll rephrase that. Why go to RMC when you can go civy-U or better yet for pilots go to Seneca and be a captain at 20 years old.

The prestige doesn't impress anyone anymore, so why put yourself through that.

Pilots have no prestige?? :o Quick, look out your window. Is the street full of guys in coveralls and Buzz Lightyear helmets? If so, you better run. Those are fighter pilots.  ;)

 :D
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Offline pbi

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #130 on: March 06, 2018, 15:56:01 »
I'll rephrase that. Why go to RMC when you can go civy-U or better yet for pilots go to Seneca and be a captain at 20 years old.

The prestige doesn't impress anyone anymore, so why put yourself through that.

I'm not sure your last statement is true.

I started my commissioned service with only a high school diploma, obtaining my degree many years later as a senior Major, through the University Training Plan for Officers at two civvy universities. I have no dog in the RMC fight.

That said, I think that being a graduate of RMC still holds a certain attraction and even prestige. Being a graduate of that institution is an achievement. They aren't automatically better officers than those of us who came up by other routes, but they are by and large good officers in my experience.

As for "putting yourself through that", maybe it is the willingness to put up with some suffering, sacrifice and pressure to get what you want, which is (or should be) the status of a commissioned officer in the CAF. RMC isn't just a place to get a degree: there are lots of easier ways to do that. The degree is just a step on the way to a larger goal: to be a good officer.

And that seems to be the crux of the debate here: are the protesting cadets demonstrating the traits of good officers, or of entitled whiners who picked the wrong career?
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Offline Downhiller229

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2018, 16:52:44 »


As for "putting yourself through that", maybe it is the willingness to put up with some suffering, sacrifice and pressure to get what you want, which is (or should be) the status of a commissioned officer in the CAF. RMC isn't just a place to get a degree: there are lots of easier ways to do that. The degree is just a step on the way to a larger goal: to be a good officer.

And that seems to be the crux of the debate here: are the protesting cadets demonstrating the traits of good officers, or of entitled whiners who picked the wrong career?

I actually find this quite interesting. And to be sure we're on the same page a lot of my good friends are RMC grads and I hold nothing against the institution itself. I just think the potential issues it has aren't necessarily looked at in the right order.

So you pose the question about wether those cadets are officers we want in the military because of the behaviour they have displayed. So are those undesirables a product of the system or are they the only ones we can get through the door? Someone referred earlier in the thread that there was a problem with cadets meeting the fitness standard. Again is that representative of society as a whole or does it show that RMC isn't necessarily an institution where people flock to.

On one side we are trying to pretend that it is the gold standard by which we want our leaders trained, on the other we allow programs like Seneca to be developed which basically says "screw you guys we just need pilots and now!"

So it's hard to try and justify this whole dog and pony show when you have conflicting messages like that.

Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2018, 18:22:22 »
While I've said several times I don't condone going to media, what can they do if they are trying to get change or bring attention to what they believe is unfair treatment and the CoC refuses to listen.  I know there are policies against going to the media but I've heard civilians wonder out loud what the CAF is afraid of if they think they are right.
 

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2018, 18:47:08 »
While I've said several times I don't condone going to media, what can they do if they are trying to get change or bring attention to what they believe is unfair treatment and the CoC refuses to listen.  I know there are policies against going to the media but I've heard civilians wonder out loud what the CAF is afraid of if they think they are right.
 

Maybe they should use the system the way it's meant to be used, and realize that not everything in life is going to result in the immediate gratification that they've been raised with.

That's part of the issue and a reflection of the immaturity and inexperience.  Yes, the system works slowly.  That's the reality.  Just because you really want something and you feel it is a right and just cause/argument, doesn't mean it's going to happen right away.  Thankfully they are in a training system and have the chance to learn all of this.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2018, 18:52:54 »
what can they do if they are trying to get change or bring attention to what they believe is unfair treatment and the CoC refuses to listen.   

Ombudsman?
"Members of the Defence community must first use existing internal review mechanisms (e.g., the Canadian Forces grievance process, the public service grievance and complaints process, etc.) before the office can initiate a review or begin an investigation."

Looks like some reached out to a lawyer. The lawyer spoke to the media,

"Fowler currently represents multiple cadets at the college who have reached out to him about the loss of privileges."



« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 19:46:11 by mariomike »

Offline pbi

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #135 on: March 06, 2018, 21:00:45 »
While I've said several times I don't condone going to media, what can they do if they are trying to get change or bring attention to what they believe is unfair treatment and the CoC refuses to listen.  I know there are policies against going to the media but I've heard civilians wonder out loud what the CAF is afraid of if they think they are right.
 

Who said the CoC didn't listen? Listen doesn't automatically mean "agree". Maybe they listened, but they considered the complaint and have decided to stick with their principles.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #136 on: March 06, 2018, 21:05:13 »
Who said the CoC didn't listen? Listen doesn't automatically mean "agree". Maybe they listened, but they considered the complaint and have decided to stick with their principles.

Sounds like marriage.  :)

Offline pbi

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #137 on: March 06, 2018, 21:14:37 »
I actually find this quite interesting. ... So it's hard to try and justify this whole dog and pony show when you have conflicting messages like that.

This is Canada, so unless there's a war on, nobody "flocks" to anything to do with the military. They never have. It will always be a minority who choose a military career, and an even smaller slice of that who choose to become officers.

Quote
So are those undesirables a product of the system or are they the only ones we can get through the door?

According to what Humphrey Bogart has been telling us from his insider perspective, they appear to be products of a system that has fallen into a very bad and almost rudderless state, but is now being salvaged. I recently had the privelige to speak to one of the classes there on a topic of recent military history. I was very impressed by the calibre of the cadets I met, and of their thirst to learn more about their profession.

Quote
On one side we are trying to pretend that it is the gold standard by which we want our leaders trained, on the other we allow programs like Seneca to be developed which basically says "screw you guys we just need pilots and now!


I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at with this comparison. Seneca College is a community college, run on business lines, which is mainly involved in teaching technical skills to civilians. RMC is an institution for training military officers as completely rounded professionals, of which technical skill is only a small part. I don't see the relevance of what Seneca College does or doesn't do in comparison to RMC: it's apples and oranges.
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Offline Downhiller229

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #138 on: March 06, 2018, 21:33:25 »
Ahh so you agree with me then.

Are you aware that out of high school I can choose to go to Seneca college to become a CF pilot. Earning commission at 18 years old and becoming a captain shortly after earning my pilot wings at ~21 years old? So are the Seneca officers a lesser caliber then the ones who spent 4 years at RMC? How do you justify spending 4 years as an officer cadet when you could be a 2Lt and a captain years before someone who started RMC the same day as you? It has to be difficult to motivate people to go in that environment when you give out such a sweet deal on the other side. So yeah it's apples and oranges but not according to the CAF

Offline kratz

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #139 on: March 06, 2018, 22:34:05 »
Quote from: Downhiller229
How do you justify spending 4 years as an officer cadet when you could be a 2Lt and a captain years before someone who started RMC the same day as you?

- If you have access to funds to pay for the Seneca route, good for you.
- 4 years of pensionable time = ability to retire from the CAF sooner with a 27 year career, ahead of the Seneca method.
- Networking. It's been often observed, RMC graduates are better networked than DEO.

The pros and cons of an entry plan are highly individual, based on the choices a young person has available to them.
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Offline Downhiller229

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #140 on: March 06, 2018, 23:21:42 »
- If you have access to funds to pay for the Seneca route, good for you.
- 4 years of pensionable time = ability to retire from the CAF sooner with a 27 year career, ahead of the Seneca method.
- Networking. It's been often observed, RMC graduates are better networked than DEO.

The pros and cons of an entry plan are highly individual, based on the choices a young person has available to them.

Seneca is paid education, 100% pensionable time from time of enrolment and given a commission following BMOQ which takes place before their first semester of school. By the time they go for their last year of school they are winged captains.

So are those officers the same as RMC grads? If so there needs to be more incentive, pay or otherwise to get the top candidates to attend that institution. On top of the changes in culture that are being made.

I'm not trying to bash the institution, and i will reiterate that I do not support the method of protest of the cadets. However it really brings out the unfortunate reality that the prestige doesn't quite cut it anymore. 

Offline winnipegoo7

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #141 on: March 06, 2018, 23:24:56 »
- If you have access to funds to pay for the Seneca route, good for you.
- 4 years of pensionable time = ability to retire from the CAF sooner with a 27 year career, ahead of the Seneca method.
- Networking. It's been often observed, RMC graduates are better networked than DEO.

The pros and cons of an entry plan are highly individual, based on the choices a young person has available to them.

**edit -someone beat me to it

I think you’re ill informed. Seneca occurs under the CEOTP entry. The deal is you go to basic as an OCDT and get commissioned as 2lt upon completion of basic. Then you do PFT. Then you do 1 year subsidized training at Seneca as a 2LT. Then you do more pilot training and then back to Seneca.

The time at Seneca is full salary as a 2LT.  It is pensionable and you can network with all the other pilots at Seneca.  It is a very quick way to become a qualified captain pilot. much sooner than an RMC pilot.

These Seneca guys are going to be the next generation of RCAF leaders. If you want to be a pilot Seneca is the way to go. 

From the RCAF website:

Quote
The new Continuing Education Officer Training Plan (CEOTP) – Pilot program has been designed to graduate a winged pilot with a Bachelor of Aviation Technology degree in just four years. That’s three years less time than it takes for a student to achieve the same qualifications at Royal Military College in Kingston, Ontario.

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/article-template-standard.page?doc=rcaf-and-seneca-college-accelerate-military-pilot-training/hrhjdzop

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #142 on: March 06, 2018, 23:44:56 »
**edit -someone beat me to it

I think you’re ill informed. Seneca occurs under the CEOTP entry. The deal is you go to basic as an OCDT and get commissioned as 2lt upon completion of basic. Then you do PFT. Then you do 1 year subsidized training at Seneca as a 2LT. Then you do more pilot training and then back to Seneca.

The time at Seneca is full salary as a 2LT.  It is pensionable and you can network with all the other pilots at Seneca.  It is a very quick way to become a qualified captain pilot. much sooner than an RMC pilot.

These Seneca guys are going to be the next generation of RCAF leaders. If you want to be a pilot Seneca is the way to go. 

From the RCAF website:

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/article-template-standard.page?doc=rcaf-and-seneca-college-accelerate-military-pilot-training/hrhjdzop

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #143 on: March 07, 2018, 06:03:58 »
While I've said several times I don't condone going to media,
 
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Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #144 on: March 07, 2018, 06:14:35 »

Offline pbi

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #145 on: March 07, 2018, 07:16:26 »
Ahh so you agree with me then.

Are you aware that out of high school I can choose to go to Seneca college to become a CF pilot. Earning commission at 18 years old and becoming a captain shortly after earning my pilot wings at ~21 years old? So are the Seneca officers a lesser caliber then the ones who spent 4 years at RMC? How do you justify spending 4 years as an officer cadet when you could be a 2Lt and a captain years before someone who started RMC the same day as you? It has to be difficult to motivate people to go in that environment when you give out such a sweet deal on the other side. So yeah it's apples and oranges but not according to the CAF

Yes but, as I pointed out (not very effectively, it seems...), RMC is just one way to produce officers. I did not come up by that system, and I made it clear that RMC officers are not automatically better officers just because they went to that institution. When I graduated from the Infantry School, my peers around me on the parade were OCTP, OCTP(M), DEO, CFR, RESO and Mil Col. Nobody was automatically a better officer just because of their commissioning program. That isn't my argument.

I would argue that Seneca and RMC are still apples and oranges. A limited program to address a particular shortage of officers with a specific technical skill is not in any way the same as an institution which was created to shape the whole officer as a professional.

Now, whether RMC has done a very good job of that, or not, is a good question.  Haaving spent the last decade in Kingston as part of the military community, I have had my doubts. Humphrey Bogart and others have confirmed some of these doubts. But good people are working to fix the place, and produce officers who have the character and discipline to be leaders, not just technicians.
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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #146 on: March 07, 2018, 07:25:47 »
And pretty much any moron can fly a plane......few and far between are good leaders of men/women.
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Offline AK

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #147 on: March 07, 2018, 07:57:35 »
I'm assuming that Seneca students don't have compulsory language classes?

Bilingualism points make a big difference in career paths these days.

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #148 on: March 07, 2018, 07:59:06 »
And pretty much any moron can fly a plane......few and far between are good leaders of men/women.

:nod:

It's a technical skill on its own, and many nations employ varying structures of non-commissioned members to do so -- the technical side does not need officership, many (myself included) would argue.  Nothing special about t, just exacting with little room for error, but that's it.

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Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #149 on: March 07, 2018, 08:00:41 »
While I've said several times I don't condone going to media, what can they do if they are trying to get change or bring attention to what they believe is unfair treatment and the CoC refuses to listen.  I know there are policies against going to the media but I've heard civilians wonder out loud what the CAF is afraid of if they think they are right.
Reeeeeally?
Really.

It kind of seems like you actually do condone going to the media, as long as it is the course of last resort. In response to "the civilians you heard wonder out loud," the CF has nothing to be afraid of, but it expects people to follow the rules.

The problem with every Tom, Dick and Harry having the opportunity to jump in front of the camera is that many of them are misinformed, uninformed, or just have an axe to grind. Think of the membership on this board. If we take a cross section of board membership and give them media privileges - do you think accurate information is going to get out? Or will it be contradictory, poorly researched, or possibly even inflammatory?

In the CFNIS, we deal with sensitive often serious cases. Often, media lines need to be drafted and the PAO in consultation with the case manager is the vetting authority for those lines. Would I want every MP with access to the information to be able to speak to it in front of the camera? Absolutely not. Often they aren't privy to all the available information in order to make an informed opinion. As I've seen here, too many people have an axe to grind and come out swinging without all the information, or choose to release selective information in order to influence opinion.

If the OCdts are truly unable to effect change - to whit - jeans, in their institution, and they feel they need to use the media as a cudgel, I would suggest they instead take their release and give themselves the privilege of wearing jeans all day, everyday.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 08:16:09 by JesseWZ »
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