Author Topic: Saudi Arabia expels Canadian ambassador for urging release of activists  (Read 31372 times)

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Offline Dimsum

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That was unexpected... :whistle:

Quote
Saudi Arabia has ordered the Canadian ambassador to leave the country and suspended new trade and investment with Ottawa after Canada’s foreign ministry urged Riyadh to release arrested civil rights activists.

A statement released by the Saudi Press Agency said the foreign ministry gave the Canadian ambassador 24 hours to leave the country and recalled its own ambassador to Canada, adding it retained “its rights to take further action”.

“The kingdom of Saudi Arabia ... will not accept interference in its internal affairs or imposed diktats from any country,” the foreign ministry tweeted.

“The kingdom announces that it is recalling its ambassador ... to Canada for consultation.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/06/saudi-arabia-expels-canadian-ambassador-for-urging-release-of-activists
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Offline CBH99

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Besides oil, which by all means we shouldn't be importing from Saudia Arabia anyway (absurd, in my own humble opinion) - do we have a lot of trade happening with the Saudi's?

They simply said they are suspending any NEW trade with us...they didn't say ALL trade, or EXISTING trade.  Just NEW trade.  So the LAV deal is safe & well in progress by now anyway.


Do we do a lot of 'new' trade with Saudi on a regular basis that this will have much of an impact?  (I legitimately don't know, asking.)
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Besides oil, which by all means we shouldn't be importing from Saudia Arabia anyway (absurd, in my own humble opinion) - do we have a lot of trade happening with the Saudi's?

They simply said they are suspending any NEW trade with us...they didn't say ALL trade, or EXISTING trade.  Just NEW trade.  So the LAV deal is safe & well in progress by now anyway.


Do we do a lot of 'new' trade with Saudi on a regular basis that this will have much of an impact?  (I legitimately don't know, asking.)


According to the Globe and Mail: "Two-way merchandise trade between Canada and Saudi Arabia exceeded $4-billion last year, a significant portion of it from a controversial multibillion-dollar deal to sell combat vehicles equipped with machine guns and cannons to the Saudis. Saudi Arabia is one of Canada’s biggest export markets in the Gulf region and more than 15,000 Saudi students attend Canadian schools and universities."

The operative word is merchandise ~ which excludes our oil imports (on which I agree, 100%, with you,  by the way) ~ so after you exclude the LAV-III deal then our trade with the KSA is insignificant.
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Offline dapaterson

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Saudi news also reports that all Saudi students in Canada will be pulled out and sent elsewhere.

Meanwhile, a Saudi Twitter account posted then deleted a picture of an Air Canada aircraft flying towards the Toronto skyline with the caption "He who interferes with what doesn't concern him finds what doesn't please him".

EDIT to add link to captured version of picture. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 11:57:12 by dapaterson »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Well that's a fairly odious and threatening message.

I wonder if government will respond like lions or lambs.
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Offline kratz

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Nice comparison with the 9/11 attack on the towers.  /s

Quote from: dapaterson
EDIT to add link to captured version of picture. 

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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Bahrain, UAE and the Palestinian Authority have also came out supporting Saudi Arabia's decision.
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Offline CloudCover

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Just heard Bob Rae on BBCUK: this is all Stephen Harpers fault.  :facepalm:
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Offline CloudCover

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Bahrain, UAE and the Palestinian Authority have also came out supporting Saudi Arabia's decision.

But...but... the PA and the current government are allies. Now what  :rofl:
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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But...but... the PA and the current government are allies. Now what  :rofl:

One of the first things the Liberals on taking office was to restore $25 million in funds that the Conservatives had cutoff to an UN agency with suspected links to Hamas. Source.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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There are much bigger and more knowledgeable people commenting in this but here’s my take:

You don’t piss off nations that can buy and sell other nations in a heartbeat.

And I agree with you about importing Saudi oil.
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If we're going to bite the hand that feeds us Oil, Energy East sounds like a great idea now, too bad the Liberals needed seats in Quebec.

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Good analysis from the The Atlantic:

Quote
The Two Words That Made Saudi Arabia Furious at Canada

The kingdom, accusing Canadians of interference, expelled their ambassador—and that was just the beginning.

Sigal Samuel 5:59 PM ET

The pandemonium started with a tweet, as so many political uproars seem to do these days.

“Canada is gravely concerned about additional arrests of civil society and women’s rights activists in Saudi Arabia, including Samar Badawi,” said a tweet from the Canadian government’s official foreign-policy account last Friday. “We urge the Saudi authorities to immediately release them and all other peaceful human rights activists.” Canada was responding to the arrest days earlier of two activists, the latest targets of a Saudi government crackdown on women’s rights campaigners, more than a dozen of whom have been arrested since May.

Within days, the kingdom declared the Canadian ambassador persona non grata and expelled him from the country, on Sunday ordering him to leave within 24 hours, and summoned its own ambassador to Canada back home. It also froze all new trade and investment deals with Ottawa. On Monday, it canceled educational exchange programs between the two countries, including scholarships and fellowships, and stated that all its students currently in Canada would be relocated to other countries. The Saudi state airline suspended flights in and out of Toronto.

It was an unusually harsh reaction, and the kingdom’s own statement on the matter latched onto two words in particular. “It is quite unfortunate to see the phrase ‘immediate release’ in the Canadian statement, which is a reprehensible and unacceptable use of language between sovereign states,” Riyadh said. The Saudis also said the Canadian statement was “a blatant interference in the kingdom’s domestic affairs, against basic international norms and all international protocols.” They warned, “Any other attempt to interfere with our internal affairs from Canada means that we are allowed to interfere in Canada’s internal affairs.”

“Interference” may seem like a strange way to characterize the Canadian government’s statement. Saudi Arabia has been criticized over its human-rights abuses in the past—given its treatment of women and minorities, its restrictions on freedom of expression, and its record of holding political prisoners—including by the United Nations and the United States. But the kingdom has reacted to criticism in the same terms before: In 2015, when a German vice chancellor criticized Riyadh over its violent treatment of dissident blogger Raif Badawi, the Saudi Press Agency released a statement written by an unnamed foreign ministry official, saying the kingdom “does not accept any interference in its internal affairs.”

But now is perhaps an even more sensitive time for Saudi Arabia. Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, or MbS, has been advancing his Vision 2030, a plan to overhaul the kingdom’s economy and international reputation through various reforms. In June, Saudi women got the right to drive, a move hailed as a historic—though long overdue—win for women’s rights activists. But that win has been bookended by losses: Several of the women who had campaigned for the right to drive were imprisoned or ordered not to speak to journalists about the reform. Some speculated that MbS didn’t want them to take credit for it, and that he wanted to control the narrative in the press. Some believe a similar desire may be animating Riyadh’s response now. 

“MbS sees himself as managing an unprecedented and delicate reform process and doesn’t want outside criticism making it more difficult, let alone from allies who are beneficiaries of Saudi business, so he is very upset at the Canadians,” Ali Shihabi, the founder of the Arabia Foundation, wrote to me in an email. But “both sides are playing politics here,” added Shihabi, a Saudi national who is close to the government. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has upheld a $15-billion arms deal to Saudi Arabia that was concluded by his conservative predecessor in 2014, yet now he “wants to defend himself from criticism of that decision by grandstanding and posturing on women’s rights.”

The arms deal, which saw Canada sell light-armored vehicles (LAVs) to Saudi Arabia, was presented by Saudi officials as a confidence-building measure that would lead to deeper ties between the two countries, including on trade and security. But that didn’t happen.

“For Justin Trudeau, who was trying to brand his government as progressive and feminist, selling weapons to Saudi Arabia was obviously uncomfortable to say the least,” said Thomas Juneau, a professor at the University of Ottawa who specializes in Middle Eastern affairs. Trudeau chose not to cancel the arms deal, although it had outraged many Canadians. But he seemed to decide that the best way to manage the awkward optics was to avoid engaging much with Saudi Arabia. “So all the promises that were supposed to follow from the big LAV deal never materialized,” Juneau said. “The result is that there was a significant buildup of irritation on the Saudi side. I went to Saudi Arabia earlier this year and the frustration among Saudi officials and analysts toward Canada was palpable and strong and growing. I could clearly see black clouds ahead.”

There’s another reason why Saudi Arabia might feel inclined to single out Canada: The activist mentioned by name in the Canadian statement, Samar Badawi, is the sister of Raif Badawi, who was sentenced to 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes in 2013. His wife, Ensaf Haidar, now lives with their three children in the Canadian province of Quebec, and from that perch she often lambasts the kingdom. (Quebec, incidentally, is currently being mentioned by many Saudi Twitter users, who are suggesting Canada is hypocritical to decry human-rights abuses in the kingdom. “In Saudi Arabia we feel worried about Canada committing cultural genocide against Indigenous people,” several people tweeted in identical terms, in a classic case of whataboutism. “We also support the right of Quebec to become an independent nation.”)

Picking on Canada, which is not one of Saudi Arabia’s most important allies, is a relatively low-cost way for Riyadh to send a message to the West as a whole. That message, according to Juneau, is this: “We do not tolerate criticism of our domestic affairs. If you do criticize, you will be severely penalized.” Juneau argued that this is of a piece with MbS’s broader modus operandi, which involves implementing some reforms while exerting tight control over the process. “When he locks up women’s rights activists at the same time that he’s allowing women to drive—that’s not incoherent. It’s perfectly coherent. That’s his way of saying: I am reforming socially, but you guys, you civil society, don’t get any big ideas.”

If Saudi Arabia’s response to criticism has gotten harsher under MbS than it was under previous leaders—the crown prince has also hit back at Sweden as well as Germany for criticizing the kingdom—Shihabi suggested there’s a reason for that. MbS needs to telegraph not only to the West, but also to Saudis, that he’s not letting his country be pushed around by foreign powers. “He is undertaking a very delicate political balancing act and outside critics have no understanding or appreciation of (or purposely ignore) the political forces (for and against) on the ground that he has to deal with as he pulls the country into the 21st century,” he wrote.

Those who stand to lose out most as a result are the approximately 16,000 Saudi students in Canada, who will now be relocated. “It’s so sad. They’re just numb at this point,” said Bessma Momani, a professor of political science at the University of Waterloo in Canada. She added that Canadian universities will also lose bigtime. “We get a lot of revenue from international students; we kind of depend on them. Saudis are one of our largest contingents of foreign students.”

Meanwhile, some are calling for other countries to stick up for Canada. “The U.S. and EU need to back Canada up and make clear that we will not back down when it comes to defense of women’s rights and human rights,” Susan Rice, the former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, wrote on Twitter. The Trump administration, which has deepened America’s traditional alliance with the Saudis, has so far not issued a statement on the recent arrests in the kingdom.

But the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and the Palestinian Authority have announced they stand with Saudi Arabia, raising the possibility that Canada may face escalating repercussions across the region.

Sigal Samuel is an associate editor at The Atlantic, covering religion and global affairs. She is the author of The Mystics of Mile End.


Article Link.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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USA, the Philipines, now Saudi Arabia. Sooner or later, trudeau and freeland, are going to figure out other countries don't share our vision of unicorns and rainbows. Someone should have told them you don't condemn another countries sociatiel norms. Nor do you put women's rights into trade talks or tell sovereign nations how much they will pay their workers. Amateur lightweights. Obviously, don't learn from their mistakes.

edit to add India and all the TPC countries he ****ed off also.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 21:56:50 by recceguy »
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Offline Altair

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USA, the Philipines, now Saudi Arabia. Sooner or later, trudeau and freeland, are going to figure out other countries don't share our vision of unicorns and rainbows. Someone should have told them you don't condemn another countries sociatiel norms. Nor do you put women's rights into trade talks or tell sovereign nations how much they will pay their workers. Amateur lightweights. Obviously, don't learn from their mistakes.

edit to add India and all the TPC countries he ****ed off also.
The less ties canada has with that extremist exporting society with no regards for human rights or dignity,  the better.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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The less ties canada has with that extremist exporting society with no regards for human rights or dignity,  the better.

So let’s talk about China. Communist China. The country our PM so admires.

Now I’m not totally knowledgeable about China but I’m pretty sure they’re repressive as well.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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The less ties canada has with that extremist exporting society with no regards for human rights or dignity,  the better.

I am not dismissing Saudi Arabian atrocities or their regime. I also agree we should have nothing to do with them. I'm strictly speaking of the grits inability to act professional, knowledgeable or within the bounds of diplomacy. Or in the interest of Canada and Canadians, on the international stage. Their virtue signaling is making us a laughing stock and isolated. Trudeau can't even buy favours giving our money away anymore. He stands alone in pictures of international leaders gathering. Nobody talks to him. Mind, he waves at non existent airport crowds also.
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Offline CBH99

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I agree with both of you, recceguy & altair.


Recceguy - 100% agreed.  Trade talks & social values don't always need to be inclusive of each other, and more often than not they shouldn't be related at all.  The Phillipines could easily buy 15 cargo helicopters from literally 20 different countries - for us to kill a deal like that based on the "as long as you don't use them for military purposes, even though they are military helicopters..." was absurd, and did nothing but hurt our own industry.

Negotiate trade.  Period.  Leave women's rights & pay scales out of it.  Trade is trade.  Healthy industry (on our end) is healthy industry...and looking out for the benefit & betterment of OUR industry is their job.



Altair - also 100% agreed.  F**k the Saudi Kingdom.  For a government to even HINT that they would interfere with the internal workings of Canada or threaten Canada with violence, for simply advocating for the release of Canadian citizens detained for verbalizing support of human rights??  Screw them.  The less ties the better.

"We support human rights & women's rights, and call on Saudi Arabia to release people involved who peacefully support human rights" - aka, Canadian citizens detained for such...is what any other country would do also.  Canada just happened to be the voice & the moment.  But I guarantee if any western citizen was detained in the Kingdom for similar reasons, their governments would be making similar statements.
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Offline Rifleman62

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Quote
......the release of Canadian citizens detained for verbalizing support of human rights??

What Cdn citizens?
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Offline QV

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That Energy East pipe would sure come in handy right about now...

Offline Altair

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So let’s talk about China. Communist China. The country our PM so admires.

Now I’m not totally knowledgeable about China but I’m pretty sure they’re repressive as well.
China,  for all of their glaring faults,  are not exporting extremist wahhabism ideology that is a key driver of making young Muslim men want to blow themselves up for their god.
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Offline Altair

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That Energy East pipe would sure come in handy right about now...
Why?

Most canadian oil Imports come from the united states.

As far as I can tell,  only 10 percent of oil imported into canada comes from the KSA.   Over half comes from the USA.
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Offline CBH99

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What Cdn citizens?


Perhaps I misunderstood the situation. 

Samar Badawi - I was under the impression she was now a Canadian citizen, but perhaps that was just the wording of the article I was reading.  The wording was confusing, as I'm not sure if she is the Canadian citizen or if she is the sister-in-law of one.  Sorry.


https://globalnews.ca/news/4372563/saudi-arabia-expels-canada-ambassador/
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Offline QV

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Why?

Most canadian oil Imports come from the united states.

As far as I can tell,  only 10 percent of oil imported into canada comes from the KSA.   Over half comes from the USA.

Didn’t you just comment up thread the less ties to the KSA the better??  That is just one among many good reasons for that pipe.

Offline Good2Golf

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Saudi news also reports that all Saudi students in Canada will be pulled out and sent elsewhere.

Meanwhile, a Saudi Twitter account posted then deleted a picture of an Air Canada aircraft flying towards the Toronto skyline with the caption "He who interferes with what doesn't concern him finds what doesn't please him".

EDIT to add link to captured version of picture. 


Re: 9/11 imagery.

Brought to you by the country from which one of the most powerful family's malcontent sons masterminded thousand of deaths... (the same day that that family's jet was allowed to depart home to KSA through closed airspace...)

Perhaps there should also be a re-assessment of the LAV business as well?

All that said, on the Diplomatic front, if we as a Nation are so aghast collectively at how other Nations close to us (*cough, USA*) message by Twitter, then perhaps we need to look at our own house and check for hypocrisy?  Diplomatic issues should be dealt with by living, breathing diplomats, IMO.

Regards
G2G