Author Topic: PMV Travel on TD (member request)  (Read 4143 times)

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Offline Pusser

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2019, 10:41:53 »
You stated "The cost comparison is for the travel by POMV to and from the TD location.  That still has to be done." That is incorrect. I agree with your definition of economical (although most using that term are referring to cost only, and yes I assumed you were too since you are stating that a cost comparison must be done regardless), but that statement is incorrect, and particularly relevant. Doing that cost-comparison when it's not required can short the member money (particularly before the latest update to the cost comparison when it was limited to 500km each way), cost him/her annual leave, and a host of other benefits. If it is the most economical (using your definition... which I agree with but confuses a lot of people), there is no cost comparison required. The member gets the high-rate, all the travel days req'd, meals, accommodations, etc, the whole nine yards.

I actually don't believe it's the fault of the people approving these things. Well, not entirely. CO's have zero training on this and their only experience is getting their own claims done. If they are told, which they are by the many many many people who are supposed to be their expert advisors, that a cost comparison is required any time the member travels via POMV, then they sign it a cost-comparison and then the member gets whatever is dictated by the cost-comparison. Yes, the CO is responsible for everything but if every CO is making the same mistake, there's a bigger issue.

We're going to have to agree to disagree.  Although we both recognize that there are a number of factors involved in making the decision, the fact remains that cost is a factor.  It may only be one factor, but it is still a factor.  No member should ever be out of pocket for doing their job, but neither is it reasonable to expect the Crown to pay extra for a member's convenience or desire.  For a variety of reasons, commercial transportation can often be cheaper than POMV travel.  If that is the case, then if the member chooses POMV, their reimbursement should reasonably be limited to what the commercial transportation would have cost.  In fact, CANFORGEN 098/19 says exactly that:

2. AS PER REF B, WHEN A CAF MBR REQUESTS AND IS AUTHORIZED TO USE PMV RATHER THAN THE MORE ECONOMICAL AND PRACTICAL MODE OF TRANSPORTATION, THE MBR IS ENTITLED TO BE REIMBURSED THE LESSER OF:

A. THE HIGHER KILOMETRIC RATE FOR COMPLETE DIRECT ROAD DISTANCE TO AND FROM THE TD LOCATION, AND

B THE COST OF THE MORE ECONOMICAL AND PRACTICAL MODE OF TRANSPORTATION


Without doing the cost comparison, how are you going to know?
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Offline Lumber

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2019, 15:57:10 »
Without doing the cost comparison, how are you going to know?

Because there is a difference between doing a cost comparison, and doing a "cost comparison". ;)

What I mean is this: it is make prudent financial and business sense to do up a rough cost comparison in order to determine what the relative costs of different modes of transportation. You takes those numbers and lumbs them in with all the other factors listed in the TDTIs, and decide upon the method of travel. In THIS process, there are no formal rules. You can do your cost comparison using an excel spreadsheet or a cocktail napkin. You can use google flights or HRG.

On the other hand, when an approving authority selects a method of travel that is NOT pomv, and the member elects to take pomv anyway, then there is an OFFICIAL "cost comparison" sheet that must be filled out. That sheet has particular rules surrounding it, and once it is filled out and signed, then it becomes "locked in" and the member can't receive anymore than what was included in the cost comparison worksheet.

So, if I'm supposed to be flying to Quebec city from Halifax for a conference, but I want to take some leave and drive there, my CoC might do up a "rough" cost comparison and see if driving is actually a suitable method of travel. They would not be using the cost comparison work sheet for this purpose. If, however, they determine that driving does not make sense (based on ALL the factors), and I want to drive anyway, then they would whip out the formal cost comparison work sheet, and I'd only be eligible to receive the amount calculated on that worksheet, no matter the actual costs.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2019, 16:47:29 »
Because there is a difference between doing a cost comparison, and doing a "cost comparison". ;)

What I mean is this: it is make prudent financial and business sense to do up a rough cost comparison in order to determine what the relative costs of different modes of transportation. You takes those numbers and lumbs them in with all the other factors listed in the TDTIs, and decide upon the method of travel. In THIS process, there are no formal rules. You can do your cost comparison using an excel spreadsheet or a cocktail napkin. You can use google flights or HRG.

On the other hand, when an approving authority selects a method of travel that is NOT pomv, and the member elects to take pomv anyway, then there is an OFFICIAL "cost comparison" sheet that must be filled out. That sheet has particular rules surrounding it, and once it is filled out and signed, then it becomes "locked in" and the member can't receive anymore than what was included in the cost comparison worksheet.

So, if I'm supposed to be flying to Quebec city from Halifax for a conference, but I want to take some leave and drive there, my CoC might do up a "rough" cost comparison and see if driving is actually a suitable method of travel. They would not be using the cost comparison work sheet for this purpose. If, however, they determine that driving does not make sense (based on ALL the factors), and I want to drive anyway, then they would whip out the formal cost comparison work sheet, and I'd only be eligible to receive the amount calculated on that worksheet, no matter the actual costs.

Except that there is no "official" cost comparison worksheet.  The one everybody uses was made up by somebody at DCBA (or they endorsed it).  Hence CANFORGEN 098/19, which essentially tells DCBA (again) to stop enforcing what they THINK should be policy, vice actual policy...
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2019, 18:12:19 »
So question on CANFORGEN 098/19; it lifts the 500 km limit, but the CFTDI still says you won't be expected to drive more than 500 km a day, and the annex you sign says you are on annual leave for the drive, and you are only reimbursed for the first day of travel.

Does that not still effectively limit the reimbursement to 500km each way?  Also, if the options are drive down in a rental vs drive down in a PMV, am I suddenly taking leave for the trip down if I take my PMV for anything after 500km?  I think it says the first day of travel and return is duty, which seems reasonable but not going to take a day of annual and split my travel into two days for a 560 km one way trip.

Think I will ditch my plan for taking a PMV and some in area leave after the trip, and just do it on my own time later.  CAF seems to excel at making straightforward things complicated.  Looks like I'll be taking the train down to Union Station in Toronto and driving from there.

Here's the excerpt from Annex A of the CFTDI;

2. I hereby acknowledge the reimbursement of the transportation and traveling expenses, in accordance with ref will be limited to the cost of the most economical and practical method of travel as per the cost comparison worksheet attached. I further understand that I will be permitted to travel by PMV on TD or Att Posting provided I have sufficient leave to enable this trip to be made safely. Utilizing the daily kilometrage maximum of one calendar day of paid leave for each 500 km traveled. The day of departure to the TD location and the first day of the return journey will be considered as duty. One additional day is required if the distance traveled on the last day is more than 150 km but less than 500 km.

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2019, 19:13:32 »
The CFTDI doesn't actually set a limit of 500km. What I read is that in order to calculate how much leave you need to make the journey, each day is capped at 500km. I've made longer daily drives without issue.
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Offline QV

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2019, 10:12:08 »
Only the CAF could complicate something as simple as taking your own car vs a bus/plane/taxi. 

Offline CountDC

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2019, 12:06:15 »
. One additional day is required if the distance traveled on the last day is more than 150 km but less than 500 km.



You get the full mileage or the approved MOT, which ever is cheaper on the cost comparison.  The limitation is that the unit cannot tell you to drive over 500 kms, you can choose to drive as far as you want.

For a trip of 560 km you don't need a leave pass.  Per the part you posted it has to exceed 650 kms before the leave becomes an issue.
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Offline ballz

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2019, 12:30:29 »
Because there is a difference between doing a cost comparison, and doing a "cost comparison".

Yes, which is why everybody needs to stop using the term "cost comparison" which refer to a specific, official, instrument with a specific purpose (which is ironically not for comparing costs... they could have saved a lot of BS by calling it "POMV (Member's Request) Amount Calculator" which is what it is). It bleeds into stuff because we start using the words "cost comparison" every time some kind of cost estimate needs to get done, such as SLTA for disembarkation leave, and then people start literally trying to calculate SLTA based on the CFTDTI cost comparison sheet.

We're going to have to agree to disagree.  Although we both recognize that there are a number of factors involved in making the decision, the fact remains that cost is a factor.  It may only be one factor, but it is still a factor.  No member should ever be out of pocket for doing their job, but neither is it reasonable to expect the Crown to pay extra for a member's convenience or desire.  For a variety of reasons, commercial transportation can often be cheaper than POMV travel.  If that is the case, then if the member chooses POMV, their reimbursement should reasonably be limited to what the commercial transportation would have cost.  In fact, CANFORGEN 098/19 says exactly that:

2. AS PER REF B, WHEN A CAF MBR REQUESTS AND IS AUTHORIZED TO USE PMV RATHER THAN THE MORE ECONOMICAL AND PRACTICAL MODE OF TRANSPORTATION, THE MBR IS ENTITLED TO BE REIMBURSED THE LESSER OF:

A. THE HIGHER KILOMETRIC RATE FOR COMPLETE DIRECT ROAD DISTANCE TO AND FROM THE TD LOCATION, AND

B THE COST OF THE MORE ECONOMICAL AND PRACTICAL MODE OF TRANSPORTATION


Without doing the cost comparison, how are you going to know?

You've made the mistake I stated earlier, skipping the analysis and determining whether or not the member should be requested to take their POMV as the bet mode of travel. You are citing from "POMV (Member Requests" automatically because a POMV is involved, without realizing there are two different POMV options. One is requesting the member to take it, the other is the member requesting to take it. They are administered differently and the benefits are different. The former does NOT require a cost comparison because you've already done the analysis (including costs) and determined it was the best method, the latter requires the cost comparison because you determined something else was better but the member wants to take their POMV anyway.

See attached flow chart.

Except that there is no "official" cost comparison worksheet.  The one everybody uses was made up by somebody at DCBA (or they endorsed it).  Hence CANFORGEN 098/19, which essentially tells DCBA (again) to stop enforcing what they THINK should be policy, vice actual policy...

Yes there is. IAW CFTDTIs, the TB authorizes the CDS to determine a method in which the member can waive their benefits (transportation, meals, accommodations, etc.) and travel via POMV at their request instead. CDS delegated that to DGCB and the method they determined was the official cost comparison sheet. The grievance was won because DCBA *modified* the official cost-comparison *without the authority to do so* when they imposed the 500km limit in each direction.

Ref CFTDTI 7.41 para 3
Quote
3.(Cost Comparison) The cost comparison required under paragraph 7.40(2)(a)(ii) shall be calculated in a manner determined by and on a form issued by the DGCB.

Note. Para 7.40(2)(a)(ii) is when a member requests to use their POMV.... it is *not* when a member is requested to use their POMV.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 13:15:07 by ballz »
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Offline ballz

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2019, 18:53:48 »
So question on CANFORGEN 098/19; it lifts the 500 km limit, but the CFTDI still says you won't be expected to drive more than 500 km a day, and the annex you sign says you are on annual leave for the drive, and you are only reimbursed for the first day of travel.

Does that not still effectively limit the reimbursement to 500km each way?

No. This exactly what DCBA's mistake was and why they put the 500km limit each way, and exactly what the Grievance Authority stated was clearly wrong. That's taking a separate part of the policy and applying it where it does not exist / does not belong. You calculate the amount in the official cost-comparison an whatever number it spits out, that's what you get reimbursed. No further thought needs to be applied.

Also, if the options are drive down in a rental vs drive down in a PMV, am I suddenly taking leave for the trip down if I take my PMV for anything after 500km?  I think it says the first day of travel and return is duty, which seems reasonable but not going to take a day of annual and split my travel into two days for a 560 km one way trip.

It has always been the case that if you request to use your POMV instead of the method selected by the approving authority, that you would only receive 1 travel day each way and require some form of leave to cover off the remaining days req'd (based on 500km/day, the last day being up to 650km). It's asinine but that part hasn't changed.

If you're taking a rental, it's because that's the method picked by the approving authority, so that doesn't apply. If it's a 1000km trip, you get 2x travel days.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2019, 11:10:02 »
Yes, which is why everybody needs to stop using the term "cost comparison" which refer to a specific, official, instrument with a specific purpose (which is ironically not for comparing costs... they could have saved a lot of BS by calling it "POMV (Member's Request) Amount Calculator" which is what it is). It bleeds into stuff because we start using the words "cost comparison" every time some kind of cost estimate needs to get done, such as SLTA for disembarkation leave, and then people start literally trying to calculate SLTA based on the CFTDTI cost comparison sheet.

You've made the mistake I stated earlier, skipping the analysis and determining whether or not the member should be requested to take their POMV as the bet mode of travel. You are citing from "POMV (Member Requests" automatically because a POMV is involved, without realizing there are two different POMV options. One is requesting the member to take it, the other is the member requesting to take it. They are administered differently and the benefits are different. The former does NOT require a cost comparison because you've already done the analysis (including costs) and determined it was the best method, the latter requires the cost comparison because you determined something else was better but the member wants to take their POMV anyway.

See attached flow chart.

Yes there is. IAW CFTDTIs, the TB authorizes the CDS to determine a method in which the member can waive their benefits (transportation, meals, accommodations, etc.) and travel via POMV at their request instead. CDS delegated that to DGCB and the method they determined was the official cost comparison sheet. The grievance was won because DCBA *modified* the official cost-comparison *without the authority to do so* when they imposed the 500km limit in each direction.

Ref CFTDTI 7.41 para 3
Note. Para 7.40(2)(a)(ii) is when a member requests to use their POMV.... it is *not* when a member is requested to use their POMV.

Although perhaps poorly named, we're stuck with the term "cost comparison."

I was nor referring in any way to a circumstance where the CO requests a member to use POMV.  That is pretty straightforward - member is reimbursed 100% of total road distance PLUS meals for the time it takes, PLUS any required accommodations en route.  I have only been talking about cases where the member requests to take their POMV.

It doesn't matter what DCBA tries to call it, their Cost Comparison Worksheet is NOT an official form.  It's an Excel spreadsheet that somebody made up.  Without a CF/DND form number, it's not an official form.  Any OR could modify it or design their own as long as it accomplishes the same thing.  They could even call it a "POMV Request (Member Request) Amount Calculator" if they want to.

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Offline ballz

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2019, 13:28:09 »
It doesn't matter what DCBA tries to call it, their Cost Comparison Worksheet is NOT an official form.  It's an Excel spreadsheet that somebody made up.  Without a CF/DND form number, it's not an official form.  Any OR could modify it or design their own as long as it accomplishes the same thing.  They could even call it a "POMV Request (Member Request) Amount Calculator" if they want to.

The fact that it is not an "official" form is so irrelevant I can't even believe you are making that argument. That cost-comparison sheet, whether its on excel, the forms catalog, or a napkin, is the "manner determined by and on a form issued by the DGCB" as per CFTDTI 7.41 para 3. Making it an "official" form so its available on the forms catalog instead of posted on DCBA's website is a good approach but not at all necessary. Otherwise what you're saying is DGCB has literally failed to complete this task for 4+ years now, simply because it didn't get the cost-comparison sheet made into an "official" form. It's a bit ludicrous.

I was nor referring in any way to a circumstance where the CO requests a member to use POMV.  That is pretty straightforward - member is reimbursed 100% of total road distance PLUS meals for the time it takes, PLUS any required accommodations en route.  I have only been talking about cases where the member requests to take their POMV.

Which brings us back to the original question. Why did you necessitate the cost-comparison?

Without knowing the distances involved, the time of the task, etc., I can't know for sure... but it appears to me that Navy Pete's scenario could be a great of example of when the CO should be requesting the member to take their POMV, rather than paying for 2x 20m taxi rides per day for the entire task.

And the problem is, and the reason I'm all over this... is the CO probably doesn't even realize that's an option and so isn't considering that option. Or, more accurately..... the clerk that's doing the staff work on this doesn't realize that's an option, and the CO is just signing whatever is put in front of him.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 13:32:16 by ballz »
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Offline Lumber

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Re: PMV Travel on TD (member request)
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2019, 18:05:55 »

And the problem is, and the reason I'm all over this... is the CO probably doesn't even realize that's an option and so isn't considering that option. Or, more accurately..... the clerk that's doing the staff work on this doesn't realize that's an option, and the CO is just signing whatever is put in front of him.

I agree with everything you've said ballz, and I'll even go a step further and say the reverse is somewhat true. I've worked with clerks who are so set in there ways thta they don't even know who the "approving authority" is and don't realize there are more options than the cheapest option, or whatever method their particular claims office has been using for the past few years.
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