Author Topic: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change  (Read 4594 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline YZT580

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 26,045
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 765
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2019, 22:22:21 »
The principal cause of forest fires is still arson.  The largest fire in Ontario last year was indirectly caused by global warming true: equipment overheated that was being used to construct windmills.  Just a little irony.  Much of the flooding in Ontario has been caused by the closure or partial closure of spillways on the St. Lawrence system, allowing construction on known flood planes,  and inhibiting water flows through the use of pipes and channels rather than allowing natural flow.  Hurricanes have been of normal strength and duration.  In fact one of the most devastating financially wasn't even a cat. 3.  Just bad luck and a random track.  Just think, if they had spent the money on planning and prevention for both flooding and fires instead of subsidising wind power and fridges for large companies most of the problems would never have occurred.  IMHO
 

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 207,395
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,477
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2019, 22:46:49 »
EMO
http://maps.library.utoronto.ca/datapub/digital/metro_1963/metro_1963_046.jpg

That reference to auxiliary police is actually a very good one. I know most provincial measures organizations have stores for emergencies, trained headquarters and supervisor staffs and links into parallel organizations (fire communications, air drop etc) as well as sources of personnel resources (such as local communities in the north for fire fighting staff).

Essentially I see two types of issues that need addressing. The first is short duration events such as seasonal flooding and fires that need a readily available supply of local volunteers (either paid or unpaid) together with an available deployable infrastructure of command and control and supplies. The second is major long term environmental changes such as coastal sea rise, and agricultural impacts which go far beyond local resources and require major investments in infrastructure and government policies. Japan is an example of a society and government that is dealing with disaster issues better than we are. We should look to them for some guidance and volunteer auxiliary disaster agencies would play a far better role than continued reliance on the the military which is a an expensive resource (at least to the federal purse)

 :cheers:
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 516,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,670
    • The job.
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2019, 09:07:51 »
Japan is an example of a society and government that is dealing with disaster issues better than we are.

Japan ( and Germany ) both rose from the ashes after 1945.

We should look to them for some guidance and volunteer auxiliary disaster agencies would play a far better role than continued reliance on the the military which is a an expensive resource (at least to the federal purse)

 :cheers:

 :nod:

Offline garb811

  • MP/MPO Question Answerer
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 88,435
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,646
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2019, 11:12:15 »
The principal cause of forest fires is still arson. 
...
Not to quibble but just because a wildfire has a human cause does not make it arson. Arson is a criminal act and relatively few wildfires comparatively are ever investigated as such.

While it is true that the "major" cause of wildfires is human, lightening is a close second at 47% (at least in the stats I've seen). The difference between a human caused wildfire and a lightening strike has a huge impact on the initial response though. A large number of non-arson human fires are reported immediately and are generally in areas easily accessible to local firefighters as first response and they tend to be contained and suppressed very quickly. The major problems come with lightening strikes because they can happen in the middle of nowhere and can be well established and out of control before they are even spotted...  This is the reason some provinces established fire lookout tower systems in remote areas; Alberta still has 127 of them in use.

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 516,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,670
    • The job.
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2019, 11:25:03 »
Wildfire? Bring in the Fire Train.

30,000 gallons of water.

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 145,570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,647
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2019, 11:29:16 »
Nothing more impressive that watching Martin Mars doing drops on a fire.

Offline Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 189,460
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,014
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2019, 11:45:47 »
. . .  Japan is an example of a society and government that is dealing with disaster issues better than we are. We should look to them for some guidance and volunteer auxiliary disaster agencies would play a far better role than continued reliance on the the military which is a an expensive resource (at least to the federal purse)


The German model is also one of the better ones (well, maybe that's my opinion because I have some dated experience in seeing them in operation - back in the 1990s one of my neighbours in Schuttern was a Hilfswerker).  Most of the tasks that the CF does as assistance to civil authorities as well as overseas operations similar to DART are the responsibility of the Bundesanstalt Technisches Hilfswerk (THW, Federal Agency for Technical Relief).  This is a civilian agency that currently has about 80,000 members; 99% of them are volunteers (usually unpaid).  Of course, there is a different culture in Germany.  Back when there was conscription, the THW was one of the options as alternate service, five years with the THW (an unpaid, part-time commitment) or 18  months full-time service in the Heer with a reserve requirement afterwards - that's why my neighbour said he started in the THW but when I knew him he had been a Hilfswerker on and off for almost  20 years.

Besides the higher profile major operations, they are also available to respond to much smaller and more locally focused situations.  Sections are organized in a large number of communities.
Quote
Departments

668 local sections, 66 branch offices, eight regional offices, a federal training center with two locations and THW headquarters. THW has stretched its safety net over Germany. All contact details can be found here.

Their website is also in English https://www.thw.de/EN/Action/action_node.html, but some of the more detailed description about organization is only in German.

As an example of a typical section, the Lahr website provides some detail (though it's in German).  Seems that they moved onto the airfield once we left in 1994.
https://www.thw-lahr.de/das-thw-lahr/
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 253,840
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,089
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2019, 11:51:26 »
We should look to them for some guidance and volunteer auxiliary disaster agencies would play a far better role than continued reliance on the the military which is a an expensive resource (at least to the federal purse)

 :cheers:

Japan has a population of about 80 million in a land area about half the size of of BC, and a GDP many times that of Canada's.

And a few other differences....
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 189,460
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,014
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2019, 12:40:23 »
Japan has a population of about 80 million in a land area about half the size of of BC, and a GDP many times that of Canada's.

And a few other differences....

Just because we have more land and fewer people doesn't mean we can't learn lessons from countries that take civil protection more seriously than us.
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 207,395
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,477
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2019, 13:28:57 »
Japan has a population of about 80 million in a land area about half the size of of BC, and a GDP many times that of Canada's.

And a few other differences....

Like a habit of social responsibility while we tend to gravitate towards social indifference.

Maybe we could change that with a few tax incentives for volunteerism of this type as we already do for political contributions and charitable donations. Maybe even federally/provincially funded rough terrain fire fighting and rescue equipment located in fire-prone rural communities (many of which already have volunteer fire departments).

Oh and how about development moratoriums on flood plains (like Vancouver  ;D)

Ooh! Ooh! And how about long range fire watch IR drone surveillance instead of towers.

 :cheers:
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline YZT580

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 26,045
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 765
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2019, 14:43:18 »
Both Ontario and Quebec rely upon Satellite surveillance for fire watch.  For the most part it works but it can be up to 24 hours before the map is read and interpreted.  That is a lot of time for a fire to get established.  The Mark 1 works but universal coverage is a physical impossibility given the area to be covered.  There is no perfect solution but proper forest management would go a long way to reducing the hazard.  And yes, the majority of human started fires are not arson: bad choice of words

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 226,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,952
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2019, 14:47:06 »

Ooh! Ooh! And how about long range fire watch IR drone surveillance instead of towers.

 :cheers:

How many would that require?  Seems better tasked to a space asset...
"What a f$$kin' week!" - me, every Monday at about 1130hrs.

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 145,570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,647
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2019, 17:13:36 »
Not to mention the number of helicopters and small planes buzzing about. If the fire is worth fighting, then likley it's in an area that likley fairly well covered.

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 207,395
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,477
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2019, 19:39:29 »
... There is no perfect solution but proper forest management would go a long way to reducing the hazard.  ...

Like this:

Quote
“You’ve got to take care of the floors. You know the floors of the forest, very important,” Trump noted Saturday surrounded by the devastation of the burned town of Paradise in northern California.

“I was with the president of Finland and he said, ‘We have a much different —we’re a forest nation.’ He called it a forest nation, and they spent a lot of time on raking and cleaning and doing things. And they don’t have any problem. And when they do, it’s a very small problem,” Trump said.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/trump-says-raking-would-help-prevent-forest-fires_n_5bf0d578e4b0f32bd58a1aba

Oh, wait:

Quote
But Niinisto told local newspaper Ilta-Sanomat that he emphasized the use of a surveillance system – and doesn’t remember mentioning raking.

“Finland is a country covered by forests but we also have a good surveillance system and network” in case of wildfires, he said.

He also said he told Trump that “we take care of our forests.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/4676548/finland-trump-raking-leaves-forest-fires/

I guess its back to satellites and drones and towers.

 :cheers:
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 301,961
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,094
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2019, 21:46:34 »
Classic Trump  ::)
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline AbdullahD

    update status.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 27,845
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 521
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2019, 01:19:07 »
Wildfire? Bring in the Fire Train.

30,000 gallons of water.

It is actually suprising how much of a fire risk trains and/or train crews are.

I am in no way shape or form, implying, suggesting or informing anyone of any legal or moral responsibility for railways to fight fires or any realistic statistics involving railways and fires.

It is just interesting. Also not sure how much I can say without getting fired for slander.

Abdullah

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 516,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,670
    • The job.
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2019, 08:05:30 »
I am in no way shape or form, implying, suggesting or informing anyone of any legal or moral responsibility for railways to fight fires or any realistic statistics involving railways and fires.

That sounds like legalese, Abdullah.  :)

And you know how much I love trains!

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 253,840
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,089
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2019, 08:34:06 »
That sounds like legalese, Abdullah.  :)

And you know how much I love trains!

Trainspotter, eh?

Would it make you too jealous if I told you that I touched the Flying Scotsman yesterday? :)

https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/what-was-on/flying-scotsman

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline garb811

  • MP/MPO Question Answerer
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 88,435
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,646
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2019, 10:43:07 »
It is actually suprising how much of a fire risk trains and/or train crews are.

I am in no way shape or form, implying, suggesting or informing anyone of any legal or moral responsibility for railways to fight fires or any realistic statistics involving railways and fires.

It is just interesting. Also not sure how much I can say without getting fired for slander.

Abdullah
Spring grass fires along the right of way where I grew up were a fact of life.

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 516,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,670
    • The job.
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2019, 11:24:21 »
It is actually suprising how much of a fire risk trains and/or train crews are.

Quote
Railroad only pays half of cost of fires caused by their steam engines

Coal-burning trains operated by D&SNG in Colorado have started multiple wildfires in the San Juan National Forest

According to an article in the Durango Herald the company that operates a steam-powered railroad for tourists north of Durango, Colorado has been paying only about half of the costs of suppressing numerous fires started by the coal-burning locomotives.

D&SNG reports that they plan to replace some of the coal-powered locomotives with diesel engines during periods of high wildfire danger.
https://wildfiretoday.com/2018/12/14/railroad-only-pays-half-of-cost-of-fires-caused-by-their-steam-engines/

I read that in the old days when city fire departments used steam boilers, a suppression apparatus had to follow to put out fires caused by sparks.



Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 253,840
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,089
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2019, 12:45:58 »
I wonder how leadership impacts this stress factor? Patton famously noted that ‘There are more tired Division and Corps commanders than there are tired Divisions and Corps.’

I assume that this principle applies to this situation, to a certain extent.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline AbdullahD

    update status.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 27,845
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 521
Re: Canada's military feeling the strain responding to climate change
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2019, 18:32:32 »
Spring grass fires along the right of way where I grew up were a fact of life.

Yep, I can't count the number of tie fires I have seen in my few short years. Then talking to the foreman grass fires etc that may have been a result of the tie fires.. are insane.

That doesn't even include when your in power say notch 2, 3 or 4.. and take a minimum with the automatic setting up the train line up and drag it into a siding were you throttle down and stop... a mile or two later... does not help the fire situation at all. Using the dynamic brakes all at he head end, would reduce fire risks.. but for train handling it is less then ideal.. but I've been trained by the old guard, the guys who weren't scared by air.

One chap I work with is a fire tracker and he cross references all wildfire burns and spread models with were railways are.. he has some interesting theories.. that may or may not be correct and/or true.

Abdullah
That sounds like legalese, Abdullah.  :)

And you know how much I love trains!

*whistles innocently*