Author Topic: A Deeply Fractured US  (Read 23306 times)

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Offline Brihard

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2020, 12:12:24 »
Did anyone see Secretary Esper's press conference this morning?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/esper-insurrection-act-protests/index.html

I don't think he's going to be around for too long.

Wow. Safe to say he's done.

I admire his courage of convictions and his adherence to the principles of democracy.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2020, 12:27:45 »
https://www.yahoo.com/news/wish-best-us-military-adviser-014003043.html?ncid=facebook_yahoonewsf_akfmevaatca

Quote
A Department of Defense adviser has resigned, effective immediately, from the military's science board, citing what he believed to be a violation of conduct from Secretary of Defense Mark Esper...

A letter to Defense Secretary Mark Esper

Quote
June 2, 2020

Hon. Mark T. Esper
Secretary of Defense
The Pentagon
Washington, D.C., 20301

Dear Secretary Esper,

I resign from the Defense Science Board, effective immediately.

When I joined the Board in early 2014, after leaving government service as Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, I again swore an oath of office, one familiar to you, that includes the commitment to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States . . . and to bear true faith and allegiance to the same.”

You recited that same oath on July 23, 2019, when you were sworn in as Secretary of Defense. On Monday, June 1, 2020, I believe that you violated that oath. Law-abiding protesters just outside the White House were dispersed using tear gas and rubber bullets — not for the sake of safety, but to clear a path for a presidential photo op. You then accompanied President Trump in walking from the White House to St. John’s Episcopal Church for that photo.

President Trump’s actions Monday night violated his oath to “take care that the laws be faithfully executed,” as well as the First Amendment “right of the people peaceably to assemble.” You may not have been able to stop President Trump from directing this appalling use of force, but you could have chosen to oppose it. Instead, you visibly supported it.

Anyone who takes the oath of office must decide where he or she will draw the line: What are the things that they will refuse to do? Secretary Esper, you have served honorably for many years, in active and reserve military duty, as Secretary of the Army, and now as Secretary of Defense. You must have thought long and hard about where that line should be drawn. I must now ask: If last night’s blatant violations do not cross the line for you, what will?

Unfortunately, it appears there may be few if any lines that President Trump is not willing to cross, so you will probably be faced with this terrible question again in the coming days. You may be asked to take, or to direct the men and women serving in the U.S. military to take, actions that further undermine the Constitution and harm Americans.

As a concerned citizen, and as a former senior defense official who cares deeply about the military, I urge you to consider closely both your future actions and your future words. For example, some could interpret literally your suggestion to the nation’s governors Monday that they need to “dominate the battlespace.” I cannot believe that you see the United States as a “battlespace,” or that you believe our citizens must be “dominated.” Such language sends an extremely dangerous signal.

You have made life-and-death decisions in combat overseas; soon you may be asked to make life-and-death decisions about using the military on American streets and against Americans. Where will you draw the line, and when will you draw it?

I hope this letter of resignation will encourage you to again contemplate the obligations you undertook in your oath of office, as well as your obligations to the men and women in our military and other Americans whose lives may be at stake. In the event that at least some other senior officials may be inclined to ask these questions after reading this letter, I am making it public.

I wish you the best, in very difficult times. The sanctity of the U.S. Constitution, and the lives of Americans, may depend on your choices.

Sincerely,
James N. Miller

James N. Miller served as under secretary of defense for policy from 2012 to 2014. He provided The Post with a copy of his resignation letter, which he submitted to Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper on Tuesday evening.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/02/secretary-esper-you-violated-your-oath-aiding-trumps-photo-op-thats-why-im-resigning/?arc404=true
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Offline FJAG

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2020, 12:30:19 »
Did anyone see Secretary Esper's press conference this morning?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/esper-insurrection-act-protests/index.html

I don't think he's going to be around for too long.

But he's absolutely right. It's been a fundamental concept since the Roman Legions were keeping the peace in the empire. You do not threaten to commit or ever commit the national military except as a last resort and then only if you are prepared to go big to the extent of killing your citizens ... because ... if you fail at that point there's no where else to go for help.

That's the big difference between the National Guard and the Active Army. If the National Guard fails, you still have the Active Army to fall back on.

Somebody's made that clear to Esper. If Trump hadn't dodged the Army during Vietnam, maybe he would understand it too.

Esper breaks with Trump to oppose using active duty troops to quell protests

Mike Mullen: I cannot remain silent

 :cheers:
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Online Remius

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2020, 12:41:03 »
Yes.  But because he is absolutely right, and has expressed it, he is not long for this administration.

I too admire his convictions.  Glad someone is saying what needs to be said.
Optio

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2020, 12:52:35 »
>A Department of Defense adviser has resigned

He must be feeling pretty good right now, seeing that the USPP has rendered null the premise of his grievance.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

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Despair is a sin.

Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2020, 13:11:34 »
Don't go bursting anybody's bubble with your facts. The popular account is Trump ordered them to tear gas the people so he could take a stroll. CNN's Don Lemon declared it was the start of a dictatorship. Wait a minute Don, I thought the past 3.5 years have been a dictatorship.

The popular account is that POTUS cares nothing about optics unless he can manipulate a situation to suit the narrative swimming around his mind at that moment.

Tbh, whether the USPP acted appropriately is altogether irrelevant. (I’m in no way discounting their version of events...I certainly wasn’t there.) What is relevant, and worth questioning, is why POTUS chose that moment in time to take the actions he did. He purposefully chose to use a tumultuous setting to...to what...what point did he actually end up conveying? The entire premise was ill timed and entirely tone deaf.

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Offline Spencer100

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2020, 13:18:19 »
>A Department of Defense adviser has resigned

He must be feeling pretty good right now, seeing that the USPP has rendered null the premise of his grievance.

Just an Obama hold over.  He has his next gig ready to go. 

Offline stellarpanther

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2020, 13:25:45 »
Wow. Safe to say he's done.

I admire his courage of convictions and his adherence to the principles of democracy.

Lol... I was just talking to my wife about that as I was logging in and she said exactly those words. 


Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2020, 14:05:52 »
The popular account is that Trump had protestors tear gassed, in order to effect their forcible removal, so that he could stage a photo op.  It's basically the short version of yesterday's (Tue) entire parade of outrage from commentators and politicians.  How - and why, and when - the USPP acted is entirely relevant.  It doesn't play nearly as well if all they have is outrage over Trump using a bible and a vandalized church as a prop.

It would be refreshing if, on those infrequent occasions they get it wrong, Trump's critics would not simply do what he does and throw up a fog of bullshit and refuse to back down from their errors.  All that does is further corrode the credibility of the bullshitters.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2020, 14:32:21 »
Re American divisions.      In 1630 Samuel Mavericke left  Plymouth Colony and struck out on his own.  The first of many.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2020, 14:33:14 »
The popular account is that Trump had protestors tear gassed, in order to effect their forcible removal, so that he could stage a photo op.  It's basically the short version of yesterday's (Tue) entire parade of outrage from commentators and politicians.  How - and why, and when - the USPP acted is entirely relevant.  It doesn't play nearly as well if all they have is outrage over Trump using a bible and a vandalized church as a prop.

It would be refreshing if, on those infrequent occasions they get it wrong, Trump's critics would not simply do what he does and throw up a fog of bullshit and refuse to back down from their errors.  All that does is further corrode the credibility of the bullshitters.

I’m assuming you’re referring to my post, since you referenced my specific wording.

My saying that USPP’s actions are irrelevant is due to the fact they’re asserting that they used reasonable measures to dissuade aggression in varying forms among some protestors within the group—that not all were peaceful, and that items were found in the vicinity further substantiating the actions they chose. They are in no way, shape, or form indicating they were given any orders to do so by any other party. I stated plainly that I was not there, so am in no place to debate their statements. Therefore, I am not supporting the media accounts that you (and kkwd) assert the “popular account” is, nor am I indicating that I have any first-hand knowledge to say unequivocally that POTUS gave an order to do so, as media is reporting.

What I made very clear to focus on is questioning the motive behind Trump’s actions and what the end result actually accomplished. You conveniently took a shot at “Trump’s critics” without addressing the reasonable question I posed. So, of equal consideration, it would also be nice if the credibility of his supporters could be upheld as well. I have yet to see/read a justifiable reason for why Trump did what he did—he purposely inflamed a situation needlessly. He could’ve captured the photo after curfew and crowds dispersed, no?

I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt by assuming USPP acted under their own discretion. However, I am not giving him any benefit of any doubt that he couldn’t have chosen a different time to stage his photo-op.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 14:39:57 by BeyondTheNow »
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2020, 15:05:54 »
1. You quoted kkwd.

2. You posited a different version of something called "the popular account", a phrase used by kkwd.

3. You tried to dismiss the idea that what actually happened is relevant in the context of (1) and (2) and, via (1), to what people are claiming about what happened.

If all you wanted to do was rhetorically ask why Trump did what he did (an unanswerable question by anyone except Trump), why bother with the preamble using kkwd's remark as a launching point?  Why not just ask that question 5 times a day - "why did Trump do what he just did"?  We can all read it and wonder.

PS.  I don't care why Trump did it; I still care (a little bit) about how much further the media collectively poisons its reputation as an institution.  I took a shot at "Trump's critics" because they are indulging in this round of outrage based on a false premise (it's Wednesday, and some still haven't clued in), which was known to be false sometime Monday when someone from the USPP made a verbal statement, easily in time for people to avoid feeding the "fake news" crowd on Tuesday.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 15:12:58 by Brad Sallows »
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2020, 15:17:32 »
1. You quoted kkwd.

2. You posited a different version of something called "the popular account", a phrase used by kkwd.

3. You tried to dismiss the idea that what actually happened is relevant in the context of (1) and (2) and, via (1), to what people are claiming about what happened.

If all you wanted to do was rhetorically ask why Trump did what he did (an unanswerable question by anyone except Trump), why bother with the preamble using kkwd's remark as a launching point?  Why not just ask that question 5 times a day - "why did Trump do what he just did"?  We can all read it and wonder.

1) I quoted him, because it was his post which sparked my reply and who I was addressing.

2) I posted what another “popular account” is. My following statement was accurate among many...excluding those who favour Trump.

3) No. Your interpretation of what I posted is that I tried to dismiss something. My next post should’ve cleared that up.

I’m also not dismissing media reports and what they contain. They certainly exist. I’m acknowledging the fact that (which one would think you and others would be content with) what several reports claim occurred isn’t backed up by those directly involved on the enforcement side. I don’t like Trump. But that doesn’t mean I’m not aware that media bias and inaccurate reporting exists.

Again, optics. That’s what it all comes down to. And to come full circle, clearly Trump doesn’t care if the optics are negative.

As for the “why” I asked? Because this is a forum, and people share thoughts, post information...and ask questions, which generally stimulate further posts—for better or worse...depending on one’s camp.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 16:42:58 by BeyondTheNow »
”You don’t have a right to the cards you believe you should have been dealt. You have an obligation to play the hell out of the ones you’re holding. ”
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2020, 16:02:05 »
I was kind of worried Hollywood actors and other famous people wouldn't be attacked by outraged fans for not behaving how fans wanted them to.

Much relieved now.

Emma Watson is being criticized for 'performative activism' after altering black squares for Blackout Tuesday to seemingly fit her Instagram aesthetic
https://www.insider.com/emma-watson-blackout-tuesday-black-lives-matter-instagram-reactions-2020-6

"Watson's images drew backlash after fans noticed that the black squares included white borders".

How DARE she  :tsktsk:
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2020, 16:45:59 »
Well, to save time:

"Why?"

1. To promote Trump.
2. To promote Trump's re-election.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline mariomike

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Offline jacksparrow

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2020, 18:33:25 »
Quote
Boris Johnson tells Donald Trump 'racism and racist violence has no place in our society' following George Floyd’s death

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-tells-donald-trump-racism-no-place-society-a4459111.html

Offline Brihard

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2020, 18:42:27 »
James Mattis has broken his silence and has now come out to very explicitly condemn the US president over his actions throughout this ongoing crisis. He expresses serious concerns with how the US military is being utilized.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/?fbclid=IwAR1EWTYSUdqLG-gY8ZbHVUMchDV4-_zZYcnvKf9ztnhSmzwlgIeNkWL97NQ
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2020, 18:47:30 »
James Mattis has broken his silence and has now come out to very explicitly condemn the US president over his actions throughout this ongoing crisis. He expresses serious concerns with how the US military is being utilized.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/?fbclid=IwAR1EWTYSUdqLG-gY8ZbHVUMchDV4-_zZYcnvKf9ztnhSmzwlgIeNkWL97NQ

You know you dun goofed when Chaos is calling you out.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2020, 19:14:09 »
You know you dun goofed when Chaos is calling you out.

Paraphrasing a friend of mine- when Mattis calls you a threat, you're a threat.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline FJAG

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2020, 19:21:52 »
James Mattis has broken his silence and has now come out to very explicitly condemn the US president over his actions throughout this ongoing crisis. He expresses serious concerns with how the US military is being utilized.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/?fbclid=IwAR1EWTYSUdqLG-gY8ZbHVUMchDV4-_zZYcnvKf9ztnhSmzwlgIeNkWL97NQ

Wow! Just wow!

Way to go, Sir.

 :cheers:
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Offline tomahawk6

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Offline Target Up

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Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline FJAG

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2020, 21:36:23 »
Here's what Trump said without the Fox filter:

Quote
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
·
23m
Probably the only thing Barack Obama & I have in common is that we both had the honor of firing Jim Mattis, the world’s most overrated General. I asked for his letter of resignation, & felt great about it. His nickname was “Chaos”, which I didn’t like, & changed to “Mad Dog”...

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
·
23m
...His primary strength was not military, but rather personal public relations. I gave him a new life, things to do, and battles to win, but he seldom “brought home the bacon”. I didn’t like his “leadership” style or much else about him, and many others agree. Glad he is gone!

 :blah:

Is there anyone who thought Trump might take the high road. ... Didn't think so.

Here's to you, General.  :cdnsalute:
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Offline stellarpanther

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2020, 21:40:19 »
That election can't come soon enough.