Author Topic: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more  (Read 406559 times)

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #300 on: May 29, 2012, 01:08:52 »
Please sir, may we have some more?

The 60mm Wonder Got Better

May 26, 2012: The U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps are beginning to receive the new M224A1 60mm mortar. This is an updated version of the original M224. Weighing 16.1-21.1 kg (35.4-47 pounds) the new weapon is a much awaited improvement on pre-M224 models. 
For ease of carrying the mortar breaks down into several components. The tube weighs 6.5 kg (14.4 pounds), the bipod is 6.9 kg (15.2 pounds), and the sight is 1.1 kg (2.5 pounds). There are two base plates. The standard one is 6.5 kg (14.4 pounds), the lightweight one is 1.6 kg (3.6 pounds). The older World War II era M2 model weighed 19.05 kg (42 pounds). A less successful World War II era model, the M19, weighed 23.4 kg (52 pounds).
 
Some of the M224 technology arrived early. Four years ago a new mortar tube was introduced for the 60mm and 81mm mortars. New metals (Inconel 718 alloy) and manufacturing methods (flowforming) reduced the weight of these mortar tubes 30 percent, and increased the robustness. But the lighter tube only reduced the overall system weight about ten percent. The complete M224 system reduced overall weight 20 percent. A year after the M224 was sent to some units for field tests, a few minor tweaks were made, resulting in the recently introduced M224A1.

For the infantry, however, every pound counts. So the M224 was particularly welcome. But the troops were very pleased at how the lighter M224 actually performed.

The marines and the army use the 60mm for infantry companies (each of three infantry platoons, plus a heavy weapons platoon), giving the company commander his own artillery. Modern 60mm mortar shells, which weigh about 1.6 kg (3.5 pounds) each, have a range of 2,000-3,500 meters. For many decades the max range of 60mm mortars was more like 2,000 meters. The M224 can use a longer range (3,500 meters) round. The longer range shells, and the availability of mini-UAVs at the company level, make the 60mm mortar a much more potent weapon. The UAV can spot targets behind hills or buildings and then adjust the mortar fire until the target is destroyed.

Infantry mortars were invented during World War I (1914-18) but have been largely unchanged since then. The current U.S. mortar designs were introduced in the 1980s, but the new tube, longer range ammo, and guided shells (in larger calibers than 60mm) are rather recent developments.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20120526.aspx
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #301 on: May 29, 2012, 10:07:58 »
The U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps are beginning to receive the new M224A1 60mm mortar.

 :-[
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Technoviking

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #302 on: May 29, 2012, 11:01:55 »
This just proves that the US Army and the US Marine Corps are full of idiots who don't understand the glorious wonder of a CASW-like weapon...


 :sarcasm:
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 11:06:08 by Technoviking »
So, there I was....

Offline Technoviking

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #303 on: May 29, 2012, 11:05:26 »
Please sir, may we have some more?

The 60mm Wonder Got Better

May 26, 2012: The U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps are beginning to receive the new M224A1 60mm mortar. This is an updated version of the original M224. Weighing 16.1-21.1 kg (35.4-47 pounds) the new weapon is a much awaited improvement on pre-M224 models. 
For ease of carrying the mortar breaks down into several components. The tube weighs 6.5 kg (14.4 pounds), the bipod is 6.9 kg (15.2 pounds), and the sight is 1.1 kg (2.5 pounds). There are two base plates. The standard one is 6.5 kg (14.4 pounds), the lightweight one is 1.6 kg (3.6 pounds). The older World War II era M2 model weighed 19.05 kg (42 pounds). A less successful World War II era model, the M19, weighed 23.4 kg (52 pounds).

Our mortar (recently ceased training) was the M19.  It was against this mortar that the "competition" for the CASW was "conducted".
So, there I was....

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #304 on: May 29, 2012, 11:27:52 »
:-[

Glass half full? maybe we can beg for their old ones?  ;D
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Offline KevinB

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #305 on: May 31, 2012, 08:45:04 »
CANSOF has a LW mortar -- funny they saw a role - maybe they are idiots just like the US Army and USMC  ::)

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Offline Technoviking

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #306 on: May 31, 2012, 09:16:57 »
CANSOF has a LW mortar -- funny they saw a role - maybe they are idiots just like the US Army and USMC  ::)

CANSOF, eh?  Pfft....

What do they know, anyway?  (It's rather apparent that they are ignoring the realities of war by using a LW mortar....)


:sarcasm:
So, there I was....

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #307 on: May 31, 2012, 09:51:53 »
CANSOF, eh?  Pfft....

What do they know, anyway?  (It's rather apparent that they are ignoring the realities of war by using a LW mortar....)


:sarcasm:

When the protests in Quebec wind down perhaps we can contract with the out of work demonstrators to lobby on our behalf? They could even keep their red squares and call them 1 Div patches.  ;D
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #308 on: June 01, 2012, 21:23:15 »
Our CQ staffed turned in our mortars this week, the same week the "train the trainer" C 16 course our Bn is running was told they would not be firing indirect as the rounds drift hundreds of meters in the wind, and the templates won't work, their words not mine.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #309 on: June 01, 2012, 21:33:02 »
.... they would not be firing indirect as the rounds drift hundreds of meters in the wind, and the templates won't work, their words not mine.

If only there was an infantry weapon system that had solved that little issue.     ::)

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #310 on: June 01, 2012, 21:37:21 »
But then we'd have to go through the expense of developing, purchasing, and issuing this weapon system, which clearly has never existed in infantry platoons.

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #311 on: June 01, 2012, 21:41:04 »
Templating wouldn't really be a huge issue, they are made for the worst case scenario for a reason.  I was just talking to a few of the guys via FB doing the course it wasn't an issue.

 They did have a huge lack of ammo.  So much so they joked that they would be teaching everybody but would lack the qual as they couldn't do the shoots needed.  They also mentioned the fact that they wouldn't be shooting indirect under 700-800 meters or so as the weapon can't elevate enough or some other nause.  Which leads to pondering...
If only there was an infantry weapon system that had solved that little issue.     ::)
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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #312 on: June 01, 2012, 21:44:03 »
The UCR exists for a reason.  Bury DLR in them...

Offline GnyHwy

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #313 on: June 01, 2012, 22:04:21 »
They also mentioned the fact that they wouldn't be shooting indirect under 700-800 meters or so as the weapon can't elevate enough or some other nause.  Which leads to pondering...

As you probably know, shooting by indirect fire (IDF) has nothing to do with range.  By my definition - it is hitting a target, without seeing it from the platform i.e.  if you can throw a grenade from a defilade position, then you have accomplished indirect fire.

My historical definition, without searching the net is: the ability to hit a target at a range that is unobservable by the platform.

Bottomline, IDF  is the art of hitting a target without directly seeing it.

Edited to add:  You can do this with MGs also.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 22:07:05 by GnyHwy »

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #314 on: June 01, 2012, 22:17:40 »
As you probably know, shooting by indirect fire (IDF) has nothing to do with range.

Yes, I was merely pointing out that we had a weapon system that could hit below those ranges.  Now it seems that due to technical restrictions on the actual mount we can't do that anymore.  I was merely adding more musing to Mr. O'Leary's post.

Edited to add:  You can do this with MGs also.

This is almost a lost art.  There is some great institutional knowledge being lost as people age out and the new IPSWC pays lip service this aspect of MGing.  Some units have done a great job of trying to hold back the dam but it seems it will be buried until we realize we need it again.
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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #315 on: June 01, 2012, 22:26:16 »
Yes, I was merely pointing out that we had a weapon system that could hit below those ranges.  Now it seems that due to technical restrictions on the actual mount we can't do that anymore.  I was merely adding more musing to Mr. O'Leary's post.

This is almost a lost art.  There is some great institutional knowledge being lost as people age out and the new IPSWC pays lip service this aspect of MGing.  Some units have done a great job of trying to hold back the dam but it seems it will be buried until we realize we need it again.

I would be happy to template it.  It is a very easy job, and a shame that there is no faith.  It is quite ironic that we are forced to use a weapon, and when we do, we are scrutinized (it's only a grenade, and it is falling a long way from anyone (in training)).

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #316 on: June 01, 2012, 22:36:18 »
I would be happy to template it.  It is a very easy job, and a shame that there is no faith.  It is quite ironic that we are forced to use a weapon, and when we do, we are scrutinized (it's only a grenade, and it is falling a long way from anyone (in training)).

I honestly don't think templating is the issue, rather the limitations on the weapon mount itself where the weapon can't physically elevate enough to fire at those ranges indirect.
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Offline GnyHwy

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #317 on: June 01, 2012, 22:45:47 »
I understand.  I have asked the manufacturer about a 1/2 charge for this problem, but they expressed that there as no requirement (yet).

You are correct in saying that templating is easy; as it is.

I have a few solutions to this problem, but I am not in a position to influence it.

Has an Arty guy ever been asked to help solve this problem?

« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 22:48:18 by GnyHwy »

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #318 on: June 01, 2012, 23:02:25 »
I understand.  I have asked the manufacturer about a 1/2 charge for this problem, but they expressed that there as no requirement (yet).

You are correct in saying that templating is easy; as it is.

I have a few solutions to this problem, but I am not in a position to influence it.

Has an Arty guy ever been asked to help solve this problem?

What do they know about infantry weapons... oh, wait a minute, they've got our 81mm mortars now. All the more reason to keep them away from our AGL, or they'll pinch that too!  ;D
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline GnyHwy

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #319 on: June 01, 2012, 23:10:03 »
What do they know about infantry weapons... oh, wait a minute, they've got our 81mm mortars now. All the more reason to keep them away from our AGL, or they'll pinch that too!  ;D

What is AGL?

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #320 on: June 01, 2012, 23:12:16 »
What is AGL?

If I tell you, will you promise not to pinch it from us? Pinky swear?

(Auto-grenade launcher, of course, also known by the boring yet correct designation: C16)
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Offline GnyHwy

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #321 on: June 01, 2012, 23:14:20 »
All I know is that I can hit targets that are not line of sight, better than most.  Give me the CASW and crap will start blowing up (at a reduced rate, because... it is only 40mm)

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #322 on: June 01, 2012, 23:17:58 »
(Auto-grenade launcher, of course, also known by the boring yet correct designation: C16)

Yes, and I fell silly.  My first thought was "above ground level", but I should have known. 


Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #323 on: June 02, 2012, 00:28:51 »
Yes, and I fell silly.  My first thought was "above ground level", but I should have known.

Just don't go throwing around all your trigonometric and ballistics 'magic words'... make... infantry ....head ....hurt... ugh  :P
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #324 on: June 02, 2012, 01:18:51 »
trigonometric and ballistics

Just because you can make up fancy words doesn't mean we're impressed