Author Topic: Dress and Deportment  (Read 40592 times)

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Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2005, 21:36:00 »
Why do CIC officers wear uniforms which differ, quite markedly, from those worn by cadets?

Because CIC officers are CF members, and cadets are not.

Offline Big Foot

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2005, 23:19:53 »
I would tend to agree with you that standards need to be better enforced, Piper. However, these standards would need to be enforced on every member of the CF, be it a CIC officer, Res NCM or the CDS. We all wear the same uniform (whether the CIC should or not is the topic for another discussion), therefore as LGen Carron said today, we are all part of the same team. As such, we must all do our part and present the public with the image of a well dressed, professional soldier. For those who think lax standards on their part make them look bad, it reflects badly on the rest of the military. However, I ask you, how do you ensure the dress and deportment standard for everyone in uniform? The answer is, you can't. Basic training tries to instill personal pride in people but unless they really buy into it, its hard to enforce, especially with Reserves and CICs. I agree something needs to be done, however I think even more emphasis should be placed on personal appearance in all basic courses, be it IAP, BMQ or whatever it is that CIC officers do. We are all a team and we all represent each other. If one person looks like a bag of shyte, we all do.
It's not insubordinate if you know exactly where the line is and walk on it but never cross it.

Offline Highland Lad

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2005, 09:37:16 »
...I ask you, how do you ensure the dress and deportment standard for everyone in uniform? The answer is, you can't.

Sorry, but we can. As was pointed out above, that is why the CF has an escalating system of warnings, C&P, remedial training, etc, etc, ad nauseam. The problem is that all takes is for one supervisor to decide that 'something that minor isn't worth the trouble...' for it all to go to shyte (and all it takes is for one supervisor to find out from his/her superiors that they won't back disciplinary action for something 'so minor' to become disillusioned with the system all over again).

Remember, they are called 'standards', not 'options'.
"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."
JFK 1961

Offline Big Foot

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2005, 11:18:19 »
My point is, there are people who don't have RSMs, who can't really be watched by senior NCOs, and those people just so happen to be CIC officers. I know the regs and res can be watched and corrected, but how do we deal with the CIC?
It's not insubordinate if you know exactly where the line is and walk on it but never cross it.

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2005, 15:25:54 »
My point is, there are people who don't have RSMs, who can't really be watched by senior NCOs, and those people just so happen to be CIC officers. I know the regs and res can be watched and corrected, but how do we deal with the CIC?

Everyone has a boss.  Whether the boss is a senior NCM or an officer is really immaterial -- all the bosses should do their jobs and maintain high standards among their subordinates.

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2005, 19:56:57 »
There are reg/reserve CWO's and MWO's who work at cadet camps in the summer, maybye something to be applied on a more permanent basis, each RCSU has a small complement of sergeants major to tour/inspect cadet corps throughout the year to ensure such things (this would be different from the CIC who work cadet standards units).

There are already regional staffers who visit the corps and squadrons at least a couple of times a year.  These are typically Lt(N)/Capt, SLt/Lt, or PO1/WO.  Presumably D&D are among the things they look at.

Offline Acorn

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2005, 00:10:42 »
Sorry, but we can. As was pointed out above, that is why the CF has an escalating system of warnings, C&P, remedial training, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

The consequences of some of those administrative actions are more far reaching than some consider. Frankly, I'd rather be charged than have a warning or go on C&P.

Acorn
"Liberal societies cannot be defended by herbivores. We need carnivores to save us." - Michael Ignatieff, The Lesser Evil

Offline Highland Lad

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2005, 10:06:11 »
Yep - I know what you mean... but my point is that we have a whole system of methods for dealing with shyte-bags, that just doesn't get used effectively at times - and some people need a few 'object lessons' to understand that some things that are overlooked on a regular basis in today's CF, shouldn't be.

If standards of Dress & Deportment were better enforced & maintained, then there wouldn't be an issue. As was pointed out earlier, however, just about every bag of shyte can point to an example (usually in their own CoC) of someone who is worse.

Remove those bad examples, and all of a sudden people will realize that no-one is exempt from fulfilling the requirements of the job, not even clierks, dental assistants, or mechanics who will never have to hump an 80 lb ruck over half of Afghanistan.
"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."
JFK 1961

Offline JAFMA

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2005, 10:55:28 »
Does anyone know how you can access the CF Dress Reg's via the internet without going through the DIN?

Offline 0tto Destruct

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2005, 11:01:13 »
"There are already regional staffers who visit the corps and squadrons at least a couple of times a year.  These are typically Lt(N)/Capt, SLt/Lt, or PO1/WO.  Presumably D&D are among the things they look at."

Thats great, but it's easy to dress up and look pretty "at least a couple of times a year".

I'm sure most CIC officers can understand where the rest of the CF is coming from here. Personally, I see nothing wrong with them, but frankly I think they suffer from an identity crisis. Yes, you are reserve personnel, but there are fundamental differences in the way reserve soldiers and the CIC do business. The only thing that really gets me (and I've only seen this in a few cases, this is not a all-inclusive to the CIC) is when I have seen CIC officers argue that they are Reserve personnel and therefore should be treated exactly the same as everyone else (especially when it comes to authority over reserve troops), but the second fitness tests or disciplinary issues arise, all of a sudden they don't count anymore. Fish or foul, folks...pick one.

As for the uniform issue, I think it's a great idea for CIC personnel to wear the same uniform as the cadets. It was mentioned by a CIC that there is no RSS CSM/RSM/Cox'n position in cadet units. So, as officers, they SHOULD be setting the standard for dress and deportment, and what better way for them to do that than to wear the same uniform. One argument given to this was that as reservists, they are entitled to the same uniform as other reservists. As a response to that, look at the Canadian Rangers. They're reservists as well, and they have a distinct uniform, same as the cadets have a distinct uniform. Even better, everyone who is a ranger or even posted to a position within a ranger unit wears the same uniform. Are you saying that you refuse even to wear the same uniform as the kids you're in charge of? I was recently on course in Camp Aldershot, and looking at some of the new jackets and such the cadets were wearing (those who actually were wearing them), they looked perfectly suitable to me. As a question to any CIC reading, what is so wrong with cadet uniforms that you'll tell a 12-year old kid to wear them, but you won't?

Cheers,

 :dontpanic:

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2005, 11:37:46 »
"There are already regional staffers who visit the corps and squadrons at least a couple of times a year.   These are typically Lt(N)/Capt, SLt/Lt, or PO1/WO.   Presumably D&D are among the things they look at."

Thats great, but it's easy to dress up and look pretty "at least a couple of times a year".

The rest of the time, the chain of comamnd is still there to do its job.  But that aside, I would suggest to you that a slob will continue to be a slob when the regional staffer comes around.  If they don't know better the rest of the time, they probably won't know better then.

I'm sure most CIC officers can understand where the rest of the CF is coming from here. Personally, I see nothing wrong with them, but frankly I think they suffer from an identity crisis. Yes, you are reserve personnel, but there are fundamental differences in the way reserve soldiers and the CIC do business. The only thing that really gets me (and I've only seen this in a few cases, this is not a all-inclusive to the CIC) is when I have seen CIC officers argue that they are Reserve personnel and therefore should be treated exactly the same as everyone else (especially when it comes to authority over reserve troops), but the second fitness tests or disciplinary issues arise, all of a sudden they don't count anymore. Fish or foul, folks...pick one.

That would bother me as well.  Fortunately such people have been a trivial minority in my experience.

It was mentioned by a CIC that there is no RSS CSM/RSM/Cox'n position in cadet units.

That must have been a misunderstanding.  There definitely is such a position in a cadet unit, held by a senior cadet.

Offline Big Foot

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2005, 11:40:52 »
That must have been a misunderstanding.  There definitely is such a position in a cadet unit, held by a senior cadet.
I think he was refering to an actual Reg or Res NCM, not a cadet.
It's not insubordinate if you know exactly where the line is and walk on it but never cross it.

Offline Riobeard

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2005, 12:08:05 »
I think the moderators should set up a CIC bashing section, as this seems to be some sort of sport on these forums, it's not a debate in any way, it's simply a way for a bunch of teen aged or uninformed individuals to take shots and hide behind a computer screen.
Yes there are examples of individuals who don't meet the standards of physical fitness, dress and deportment in the CIC we all have seen these examples.  But there are also the same individuals in the Reserves and in the Regular forces.  How do I know?  I've been in each and until such time as each of you can say the same, perhaps you can stop using your short sighted and limited experience to continue in your rants.  As for those who share the depth and breadth of experience I welcome your comments and value them, I also take notice that they are more constuctive and balanced.
If ANY of you have problems with the CIC, then I suggest you stop your rants and get involved, we'd love to have you help us raise the standards and bring your personal wealth of experience to the movement.  How about becoming part of the solution vs. the Problem?
If you'd like to post suggestions, please do, but lets be constructive folks.  And if your going to voice your opinions which you are free to do, please don't go off on tangents.
Just remember the old Irish proverb that when you're point your finger there are three more point back at yourself......
End of my Rant.   >:(
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.
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Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2005, 12:24:14 »
If ANY of you have problems with the CIC, then I suggest you stop your rants and get involved, we'd love to have you help us raise the standards and bring your personal wealth of experience to the movement.   How about becoming part of the solution vs. the Problem?

Perhaps the best post on this topic that I've read so far.

I would underline the invitation for people with experience in the regular force or primary reserve to put some serious thought into transferring into the CIC once you're done in your current trade.  Those who join the CIC from elsewhere in the Forces have a great deal to offer.

Offline Meridian

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2005, 12:32:58 »
I dont see how there is bashing going on. What I do find is that everytime a comment is negative (whether constructive or not), CIC members immediately claim they are being bashed.

JavaMan's comments were very fair.. he presented logical arguments and asked specific questions. Instead of responding to those questions, you instead claim you are being bashed.

This is the same sort of round-a-bout speak you get from politicians. Instead of answering a directed question, you avoid it and claim you are being hounded/berated.

Dress and deportment is an issue amongst ALL branches. Clearly so, based on the posts in this thread... But I specifically enumerated an instance where a LARGE group of CIC officers were together, in one area, and FOREIGN officers immediately noticed a difference between them and all the other officers who frequently visited CFSJ.     The uniforms were the same, so why the difference in viewpoint?

Im not saying ALL CIC officers are overweight and cant meet dress standards....   In fact Im sure some of you are exemplary leaders....   but some are not, so how are you addressing this?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 12:50:53 by Meridian »

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2005, 12:46:14 »
...
...   As for those who share the depth and breadth of experience I welcome your comments and value them, I also take notice that they are more constuctive and balanced.

If ANY of you have problems with the CIC, then I suggest you stop your rants and get involved, we'd love to have you help us raise the standards and bring your personal wealth of experience to the movement.   How about becoming part of the solution vs. the Problem?

If you'd like to post suggestions, please do, but lets be constructive folks.   And if your going to voice your opinions which you are free to do, please don't go off on tangents.


OK, agreed.  How about I involve myself by writing to Ron Buck?

Here's my first DRAFT:

----------
Dear Admiral;

I have noted a few Cadet Instructor Cadre officers here in Ottawa.  I'm sure I failed to notice many others because they, the ones I didn't notice, were not slovenly.

I was somewhat surprised to learn that CIC officers are officers in the Reserve component of the Canadian Forces; it had, previously, thought that cadet leaders were civilian volunteers.

Since the '60s, in both the Regular and Reserve forces, officers and other ranks wear very similar uniforms.  Save for rank badges and, sometimes, a bit of braid on caps, there is not much difference in the uniforms of, say, a ship's captain and an able seaman or an infantry company commander and a private in a rifle platoon.  Why then, I wonder, do CIC officers dress in a manner which is markedly different from the cadets whom they lead?

I recommend that you revisit the issue of standards, including standards of fitness and dress and deportment, for the CIC and, specifically, I recommend that the CIC â “ like the Canadian Rangers â “ have a 'special' uniform, based on the one worn by cadets.

Regards

etc

----------

Comments?  Suggestions?
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Offline Riobeard

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2005, 12:50:18 »
Meridian let me refresh your memory about your post:
To be honest, the worst case of this was CIC; when I was at CFSJ in St-Jean, we had officers doing the MTAP (I think thats the acronym) language courses from all over NATO and eastern Europe.   We'd have CIC training weekends where the CIC's would come and do seminars and the like (I dint really know what), and the foreign officers would just look appalled at all these Canadian uniformed people who were overweight and looking like bags of -----.   
Excuse me if this isn't Bashing, it would seem I don't properly understand the term.... ;)

Your use of the term "all these Canadian Uniformed people who were overweight and looked like bags of -----." infers that they / we all have such an appearance.   It's a generalization and a "bash" in my opinion.   You also state you don't really understand what they were doing.   If you were an informed individual you'd perhaps had been able to explain to your foreign comrads who they were and what they were doing, but I suspect you didn't as you couldn't.
Did you take the time to talk to anyone about this when it happened?   Never pass a fault my friend, if you failed to bring this to the   :oattention of someone from the CIC school or to the individuals in a constructive manner, then you're part of the problem.
I take it upon myself as an officer to have a word with ANYONE that I see who is failing in their dress or deportment in a constructive manner.   It's my job as an officer and member of the Canadian Forces.   Is it not your job too? :o
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.
-- Niels Bohr

Offline Riobeard

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2005, 12:55:45 »
Edward,
  Sure if that's how you feel, by all means.  But to continue with lack of generarities, how be you find the local cadet corp and volunteer to offer them the benefit of your 35+ years of service and help them raise the standard from within.  I saw a problem, I got involved, I've made a difference.  How about you?  You see a problem and write a letter.....hmmmm....
  Actions not words make a difference.
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.
-- Niels Bohr

Offline Meridian

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2005, 13:04:40 »
Riobeard - As an Officer Cadet, I did not find myself in the appropriate position to be approaching senior officers and making comments as to their dress or deportment. Several of us did, however, make comments to our staff and, IIRC, the answer back was "its the CIC, what do you expect".

As for my specific comments earlier, you are correct, that was a generalization and the terminology (specifically the word "all") should have better reflected the situation, however my intent was to underline that the foreign officers recognized this group as a group, and to communicate just how this group was identifiable and the fact that we as young officers-to-be were incredibly embarrassed at trying to show the differences between we and them.

Indeed we did explain the role of the CIC in fostering interest in the forces and providing leadership to select members of canadian youth, but in any event it was still difficult to explain why someone wearing the same uniform as me did not have to meet the same physical fitness or deportment standards. (Note that many of the OCdts I was with were ex-cadets, and as such were very familiar with the purpose of the Cadet movement).

As far as bashing, JavaMan asked directed questions, as I previously stated, and I do not see why those continue to be ignored in favour of pointing out how I generalized.   Again, I apologize for my generalization as I have met some extremely dedicated CIC officers...


Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2005, 13:24:06 »
OK, agreed.   How about I involve myself by writing to Ron Buck?

Here's my first DRAFT:
Comments?   Suggestions?

Cadets (sea cadets, anyway) wore the same uniform as service members up until unification.  How's that grab you?

At any rate, I think there's considerable advantage to be had in ensuring a very clear line between officers and cadets.  The current social thinking has tended to blur that line in the Forces, hence the similar uniforms across ranks, but with cadets it remains a very solid and rather important line.

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2005, 13:31:32 »
Several of us did, however, make comments to our staff and, IIRC, the answer back was "its the CIC, what do you expect".

That was a very poor response on their part.

Indeed we did explain the role of the CIC in fostering interest in the forces and providing leadership to select members of canadian youth, but in any event it was still difficult to explain why someone wearing the same uniform as me did not have to meet the same physical fitness or deportment standards.

There are no differing deportment standards, and you should (once you get a stripe or two) never let anyone by with poor deportment just because of his branch or trade.

If you have to explain the differing physical fitness standards to someone, I would suggest mentioning that CIC officers work principally in offices and classrooms, and are not called upon to fill combat roles, so the resources are not put into maintaining as high a level of fitness as is done with combat pers.  Let your colleagues draw their own conclusions as to why some personnel, in the CIC and out, don't maintain what one might consider to be an appropriate fitness level.

Offline Riobeard

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2005, 13:32:46 »
Meridian thank you for your comments and clarification of your instance of angst in CFSJ.
As to your comment about Javamans posting here is what I believe:
- yes the CIC needs to improve their standards if for no other reason than to be able to walk the walk that is preached to cadets about dress, deportment and physical fitness.   I personally take all of these to heart and lead by example.
- yes the CIC needs to have higher standards of training, they do well with what is given but there is always room for improvement and each CIC officer should, as part of their terms of service, be required to make the effort to spend time indulging themselves in improving their own knowledge, and physical condition.
- yes the CIC needs to be more "selective" for want of a better word in those who they hire, and retain.
I don't believe any of the CIC officers who have posted here or anywhere else on the forum will dispute any of these.   We all feel that there is room for improvement.   But again I repeat that if you see a problem you need to act and I thank you for at the very least brining what you saw to the attention of your staf.   Their lack of action speaks volumes as to their regard and makes them part of the problem.   They should have acted and at the very least passed along your concerns and circumstances.
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.
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Offline 0tto Destruct

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2005, 15:34:13 »
At any rate, I think there's considerable advantage to be had in ensuring a very clear line between officers and cadets.   The current social thinking has tended to blur that line in the Forces, hence the similar uniforms across ranks, but with cadets it remains a very solid and rather important line.

Well, thank you for the (indirect) reply...but I don't really buy that argument, though. Why is a separate uniform a "solid and rather important line?" Can you please clarify why? Isn't a set of officers bars enough of a distinction? I see this as a question of representation. IMO, A CIC officer has more in common with a cadet than any other type of CF member (regular, reserve, whatever), and their role in the CF, the training they're given, and the types of employment they are qualified to take. It seems odd to me that the CIC does not have a uniform that reflects that association and these skillsets; if anything it distances them from the cadets they're trying to lead. It's also a question of representation from without. As it was mentioned in this thread, even foreign militaries have noticed this difference.

Riobeard: As for the "Bashing" comment...I have to disagree there. In my opinion, this site is so great because CF members can discuss these types of issues in an environment of equality where they can speak freely and honestly, without fear of reprisal. Sure it's abused by some people, but by and large it's the only place where a corporal can tell a captain (in a respectful manner, obviously) EXACTLY what he or she thinks about an issue. The question then is whether or not the captain thinks what the corporal is asking is a fair and honest critical question, and willing to hear a new point of view, or simply dismiss it as "bashing". Truth, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

Also, your other comments WRT not passing a fault and being a part of the solution and not part of the problem. The way I see it, members on this site have identified an issue, and by discussing it here we have helped bring it to the attention of people such as yourself who can address the issue.   Would you agree that thats a fair observation?


Cheers,

 :dontpanic:
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 15:37:26 by JavaMan »

Offline Riobeard

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2005, 16:14:37 »
Javaman,  I do indeed agree with your last two points about open and honest discussion, bringing things up etc.
I do have a problem with the way in which some members of this forum choose to do so with generalities.
Merely pointing out problems based on limited experience, single instances or occurrences, vs. voicing a well laid out, and well researched position based on fact, to me, is the difference between bashing and debating a subject.  And I prefer that people offer rational solutions based on researched knowledge vs. throwing out off hand comments.

Oh and BTW, Mr. Campell, respectfully sir, if you wish to voice your comments you might want to send them off to Major General H.M.Petras the current Chief or Reserves and Cadets, instead of Vice Admiral Buck.
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.
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Offline 0tto Destruct

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2005, 16:20:18 »
I do have a problem with the way in which some members of this forum choose to do so with generalities.

Couldn't agree more. Its fortunate that the moderators here are so good at not passing faults...  :salute:

 :dontpanic: