Wow, great debate! I go away on the Combat Team Commander's Course and miss all this good stuff!
George, I have to say that your method of debating here is getting a little old. Instead of slamming RecceDG and others for 'not knowing anything' or 'talking out of their lane', why don't you just explain your position based on your knowledge of LAV tactics, infantry training, and modern (i.e. post LAV III introduction) combined mechanized operations? That would certainly be more productive and less hypocritical. I think I see why you will never agree with RecceDG or I. It's because you are convinced that the LAV is just an M113 with wheels.
All good arguments from everyone but I can tell you that my latest experience in the field these past 3 weeks has confirmed my belief that LAV trg comes at a cost for the infantry. The sub-unit I trained with that was decent (but far from great) at LAV tactics was utterly horrible at dismounted skills and likewise, the sub-unit that was very good at dismounted skills had a long way to go before they could be considered competent with the LAV. It was interesting because that exercise was the embodiment of this argument and it was plain for all to see that you could not be skilled at both LAV and dismounted tactics given the very real limitations of training time and resources. The soldiers and NCOs in each coy even stated as much when I asked them.
Now, I think much of this debate is taking two distinct paths:
1) The LAV is just an APC like the M113 or the Grizzly. The infantry manned those so why can't they crew the LAV III?
and
2) It would be too hard in terms of PY's to transfer the LAVs to the Armd. Also, it would be a great loss of prestige for the Infantry and we would be reduced to plodding dolts while everyone else gets to have some real mechanized fun.
Well, for point 1, I don't know how to respond to that one other than to say go crew a LAV for a day! I was brought up in M113s and Grizzlies and the complexity of the vehicle is incredible. Comparing the Grizzly to the LAV is like comparing a Cessna 172 to a Boeing 777. We never did any crew drills in the Grizzly or the M113; we had no thermal, stab, TACNAV, etc. Anyway, all this has been said before and I suppose it won't change some people's opinion about how complex the LAV is. I will say this though - why is it that we are one of the few western armies that doesn't crew their IFVs with a different MOC or sub-MOC than the GIBs? Do we know something everyone else doesn't? No, we don't. In fact, the LAV was introduced with very little official thought (although a lot of unofficial debate) about who would crew the thing. We took Grizzly bns, changed absolutely nothing with regards to TO&E and made no adjustments to career progression or employment of the infanteers.
For point 2, this reeks of cap-badgism. Actually, most of this debate has centered on what's best for one Corps over another. I would take the driver-gunner-crew commander PYs right out of the inf bns to form these LAV Sqns. So the infantry is 800 pers smaller, at least the bns left would be able to focus their training on infantry skills rather than slowly decompose into the Second Best Armoured Corps in Canada as is now happening. I would rather have smaller Bns with more focussed trg, supported by very competent crews than be stuck with the status quo. I would form 6 LAV Sqns, each with 3 Troops of 16 LAVs. The personnel would be the PYs currently assigned to LAV crews anyway (i.e. Troop Leader - LAV Capt, Sect Comd - LAV Sgt etc.). The only new positions would be 6 Majs to Comd the Sqns, and don't tell me we couldn't find 6 Majs if someone was to seriously comb out NDHQ! I am not wedded to the idea that the LAV crews must be Armd but they must train solely on the LAV. Call them 031B if you like, I don't care. However, creating a new sub-MOC seems far less efficient than giving this task to the Corps that already specializes in crewed vehicle training and tactics.
LAV Sqns could be affiliated with inf bns although this need not be permanent. In my view, this would mean that every inf bn would be light if need be, but could be mech with a LAV Sqn attached. Combined arms trg would happen all the time (just like it does now).
Anyway, that's enough. We're just going to keep arguing in circles, no doubt. It's funny that the more experience I get with LAVs and combined arms operations, the more I think we are headed down the wrong path with the status quo. Oh well, the infantry crewed the M113 in the 70s, why can't we crew the LAV in the 21st century!? Long live mindless inertia!
MG