Author Topic: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan  (Read 34679 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matt_Fisher

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 19,200
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Former Marine
Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« on: January 09, 2006, 10:13:14 »
Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1136328631719
Toronto Star
Jan. 4, 2006. 05:20 AM
CHRIS SANDS
SPECIAL TO THE STAR


KANDAHAR—Abdul Mobin's voice sounded peaceful as he talked about the need for a holy war in Afghanistan.

"In each district of Kandahar, we have 200 religious people. They are very intelligent, they are true Muslims. I know they are true because they also told the Talibs when things were wrong. Now they are also telling us to start the jihad," he said.

Mobin is a polite, soft-spoken Pashtun with a closely cropped beard. Outsiders might describe the 25-year-old as a terrorist sympathizer or an Islamic extremist, but his views are not radical here.

But they are chilling in their implications for the Canadian troops charged with bringing order to the region.

"We can't see any difference between the Americans and the Canadians and the British," Mobin said, noting the Taliban view all members of the NATO military presence as occupiers controlled by the U.S. "If anyone does anything here, we think it's the Americans who did it."

The Taliban movement was born in Kandahar in 1994, when widespread lawlessness gripped Afghanistan in the wake of the withdrawal of Soviet forces. Its fighters quickly seized control of the city and within two years captured Kabul.

Mobin joined the group soon after its formation and he can still remember the euphoria he felt back then.

"At that time we were very happy. It was like we were very poor and had suddenly found a lot of money," he said.

Kandahar lies at the heart of the insurgency now sweeping across Afghanistan. Security in the province is dire and gets worse with each passing day. According to residents, troops rarely venture into the city because the situation is simply too volatile here.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
`Under the Talibs, if we had any problems, the government would sort things out very quickly'

Abdul Mobin, Kandahar resident

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Some 685 Canadian soldiers are already in the Kandahar area and about 1,400 more are expected to arrive next month.

Often dressed entirely in black, Talibs can be seen throughout Kandahar. They are not all involved with the insurgency but support for their beliefs is strong among the local population. This is because corruption has increased since the 2001 invasion and security in the province has declined.

"Under the Talibs, if we had any problems, the government would sort things out very quickly. Now we have to pay a lot of bribes to the government," said Mobin, who worked as an administrative officer when the Taliban controlled Kabul.

The Pashtun also still admires the men from Al Qaeda who were allowed to live and train in Afghanistan during that period.

"They came here just for jihad. Some Arabs lost their lives and now if you go to their graves, however sick you are, God will recover you. Thousands of people visit their graves to be cured because the Qur'an says God gives thousands of types of medicine to martyrs to cure different types of disease," he said.

Mobin accused some Taliban members of lacking knowledge and working against Afghanistan's interests. But he praised Mullah Mohammed Omar, the group's one-eyed leader, who remains a fugitive.

"Mullah Omar is a good man," he said. "Whenever he wanted to do something he would ask the religious people what he should do.

"Mullah Omar has no faults and the Talibs who are fighting have to fight. If they come back to Kandahar to live normally they will be caught by the Americans and sent to Guantanamo. If they go to Pakistan they will be caught. It's not their fault — they have no choice but to fight.

"I can't tell you if (the insurgency) will get stronger or not. But I can tell you one thing: No one can defeat them, no one can finish them. All the world can come together and it will not finish them, because it is written in the Qur'an."

Chris Sands is a freelance journalist

Offline Dog

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,020
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 223
  • NOT a bounty hunter.
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2006, 10:30:01 »
Faaaantastic.
Violence must be eradicated,... kill all the violent people you know.

Offline Spartan

  • Prairie Type
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 282
  • They're watching.
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2006, 18:31:18 »
Sounds like they're organizing pretty well, and are deeply rooted in the administration, something that will affect Canada and its forces in the very present and future if this is the general consensus of these groups. This will only mean that we're going into Afghanistan for a long time, something that will affect alot of different areas including foreign policy, CF capabilities and equipment procurements. And I have a feeling these groups are spreading across the regions, which will greatly affect any future ops, and will also greatly affect countries in general - forcing a greater change in overall political environments.
BMQ MCpl:
"Being in the army is like being a mushroom - kept in the dark, fed crap and keep coming back for more."

Offline ArmyRick

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 30,995
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,990
  • What the????
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2006, 18:36:09 »
Abdul Mobin's opinions are noted. 'nuff said.
M'eh

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 53,750
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,376
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2006, 20:02:24 »
Related to this topic...

I recently read a book called 'My Jihad' - the name of the author is escaping me right now.  Very good book, definitely recommend the read, especially to members of this forum.

The book is about a former Mujadeen fighter, who fought in Afghanistan and Chechnya.  He had met Usama Bin Laden, prior to Usama's fame around the world as a global terrorist, and has worked with American intelligence to gather information on terrorist operations.  Very good book, especially if you want an inside look at the mindset of a Mujadeen fighter, and how they consider themselves different than other religious extremists.
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline Journeyman

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 588,835
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,541
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2006, 20:17:19 »
I recently read a book called 'My Jihad' - the name of the author is escaping me right now. 

It's by Aukai Collins - - an American who converts to Islam in a US prison, heads off to Bosnia to join the jihad, does the terrorist training gigs in Afghanistan and Pakistan, fights along side Usama's folks in Chechnya, gets fed up with terrorists wasting civies and becomes an FBI informant......you know, typical 'boy meets girl' story.  ;)

Actually, it is a good book, both for its inside look at the jihadist world, as well as commenting on the serious disconnects within the current counter-terrorist intelligence system.

Offline geo

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 26,410
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,648
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2006, 20:47:07 »
You ask white anglo saxon fellas in toronto to tell you the difference between hinese, Japanese, Korean and Mongol men and "most" will look at you with a blank look and ask you "there's a difference?"... ditto between Indians, Pakistanis and Sri Lankans.

So I'm not surprised that the people of Kandahar group Americans, Brits and Canadians into one big happy grab bag... hey - a lot of our equipment and uniforms are similar looking.

Ask most individuals if they prefer "kaos in democracy" or "security in a dictatorship" and most will settle for the latter. Remember - Mussolini & Adolph made the trains run on time.
Chimo!

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,856
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2006, 23:39:26 »
Oooooooh, a semi-literate tribesman spews religiously flavoured hatred against the US et al, including us. This is hardly "news".

If he really wants to put his money where his mouth is, he is more than welcome to demonstrate the strength of his convictions by attacking coalition troops. I'm sure that they will be more than willing to oblige his desire to become a glorious martyr.
No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

  • Drawing the crabs from Downunder :) WTF is TWL?
  • Banned
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 28,790
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,224
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2006, 03:22:46 »
We just have to remember that education is pretty much no existant especially in those hills, and women are worse off, so many don't even know what a Canada is, and after all if some sorta heard of it, they might roughly know where it is and they might think it is another part of America. I beleive only a small minority really know, and thats just how it is.

We sort of sound the same (After 11yrs of living overseas unless a Yank is from the south, I can't pick it out on many occasions myself).

Either way, we are foreigners occupying their country with white skin, and many will tar us all with the same brush. All westerners.

Being Canadian does make you bullet proof or a superman as many think! This 'hey don't they know who we are' has ended.

Cheers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline Matt_Fisher

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 19,200
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Former Marine
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2006, 07:33:16 »
Oooooooh, a semi-literate tribesman spews religiously flavoured hatred against the US et al, including us. This is hardly "news".

If he really wants to put his money where his mouth is, he is more than welcome to demonstrate the strength of his convictions by attacking coalition troops. I'm sure that they will be more than willing to oblige his desire to become a glorious martyr.

Just remember that Afghanistan is home to this 'semi-literate tribesman'.  We're in HIS backyard.  Be careful what you wish for.

Offline KevinB

  • Has Been
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 35,590
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,334
  • As a Matter of Fact the Sky is Blue in my world...
    • FN America
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2006, 07:37:14 »
If you talk to people on the street in Kabul you will hear of vast Pashtun and Pakistani comspiracies etc.


 The folks down south dont like us a lot...
 
Kevin S. Boland
Manager, Federal Sales
FN America, LLC
Office: 703.288.3500 x181 | Mobile: 703-244-1758  | Fax: 703.288.4505
www.fnhusa.com

Offline Nerf herder

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 24,986
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,031
  • The usual suspect.
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2006, 12:35:24 »
Tell me about it.    ::)

Regards
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
    -Norman Schwartzkopf

Offline Kilo_302

  • Banned
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 5,705
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 530
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2006, 18:11:00 »
I think the main problem in Afghanistan is that the Americans never committed enough forces once the Taliban was defeated. The military campaign itself ran like clockwork, much to the surprise of Osama Bin Laden, whose best hopes would have been met by a US/Coalition campaign in Afghanistan similar to that of the Soviet experience in the 1980s. However, the US got it right, by using the Northern Alliance in concert with Special Forces and air power. There was a window just after the defeat of the Taliban that the US could have used by expanding the mandate of UN forces in Kabul, and permitting them to operate in the countryside working on development and stability projects. Instead, US forces concentrated on hunting Bin Laden, and left the countryside to the war lords. The US also needed the bulk of its forces for Iraq (an move which made Bin Laden and his pals extremely happy), so could not focus as much on Afghanistan. The increase in violence we are seeing is due to a lack of US follow through in the period immediately following the downfall of the Taliban, and an unwillingness to give the international forces in Kabul a greater mandate.  I only hope Canadian soldiers do not have to pay a high price for this lack of foresight.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 46,332
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,002
  • dealing with life not that active here anymore
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2006, 18:31:58 »
Why should the US be held responsible, perhaps if the Coalition ante'd up more troops and materiel then we would not have had the problem you describe.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline TCBF

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 13,730
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,940
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2006, 18:43:02 »
"Remember - Mussolini & Adolph made the trains run on time."

- Nevermind run on time, how about even FINDING a train to Thunder Bay?  117,000 people and no Via Rail.

"We can't see any difference between the Americans and the Canadians and the British," Mobin said, "

- When we got there in Feb 2002 one of the first comments we heard was how much we looked like Russians, and if we stayed more than a year, we would be the new enemy.

"Great" I thought, "just great..."

Tom

"Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."   - Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axeworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.


"I didn’t feel that it was an act of violence; you know, I felt that it was an act of liberation, that’s how I felt you know." - Ann Hansen, Canadian 'Urban Guerrilla'(one of the "Squamish Five")

Offline Kilo_302

  • Banned
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 5,705
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 530
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2006, 00:45:56 »
Quote
Why should the US be held responsible, perhaps if the Coalition ante'd up more troops and materiel then we would not have had the problem you describe

The issue was not numbers of coalition troops. The United States did not want any interference with the hunt for Bin Laden, and therefore made sure that UN troops stayed in Kabul, when they could have been in the countryside taking power from the war lords, something the US was not willing to do because it would require more man power. If there were in fact insufficient numbers of UN soldiers, this is directly due to the fact that they were stuck in Kabul, where they were ineffective. Why send more soldiers to an already stable area? If the United States had allowed an expanded mandate, I think we definitely would have seen larger numbers of troops. Remember, at this point in time, nations were virtually falling over each other to send troops to Afghanistan as 9/11 was fresh in everyone's minds.

Offline KevinB

  • Has Been
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 35,590
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,334
  • As a Matter of Fact the Sky is Blue in my world...
    • FN America
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2006, 02:53:44 »
Dude your an idiot.


One they are NOT UN troops

They are NATO with a bunch of hangers off.


Secondly none of the namby pamby nations want to leave the safety of Kabul.

We had a German contingent that refused to patrol their sector (just outside of KJabul) since they took sporadic small arms fire.

The Brits where in OEF from the beginnign and IF YOU CAN RECALL in 2002 3 PPCLI was down in Kandahar -- how is that for the US not wanting help...

Your out of your league in this discussion - it was the other nations that just on the ineffectual ISAF mission to abandon the US in OEF.


-
Kevin S. Boland
Manager, Federal Sales
FN America, LLC
Office: 703.288.3500 x181 | Mobile: 703-244-1758  | Fax: 703.288.4505
www.fnhusa.com

Offline Bratok

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 60
  • Bratok
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2006, 09:39:59 »
Secondly none of the namby pamby nations want to leave the safety of Kabul.

We had a German contingent that refused to patrol their sector (just outside of KJabul) since they took sporadic small arms fire.

I've read an article a couple of months ago about Germans stationed on Hindukush and taking casualties, don't have the link, though, sorry.

Offline geo

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 26,410
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,648
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2006, 13:19:10 »
sure the germans took casualties - same as most nations participating in ISAF
Talib went after one of their busses in Kabul - a little before our troops joined ISAF

A country that is in an environment like Afghanistan or Iraq AND not drawing some fire by beligerents.... is playing it a little bit too safe.
Chimo!

Offline Nerf herder

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 24,986
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,031
  • The usual suspect.
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2006, 14:11:18 »
I've read an article a couple of months ago about Germans stationed on Hindukush and taking casualties, don't have the link, though, sorry.

Your thinking of the Dutch out of Mazeri Sharif.   ;)

They are in K town with us as well.

Regards
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
    -Norman Schwartzkopf

Offline Bobbyoreo

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • -30
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 276
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2006, 14:37:03 »
Didnt think the Dutch were out there anymore. Might be getting my missions turned around.

People have to remember that they are in a place where there is like 8-10 different armies patroling their back yards. Very easy to see how they think everyone is from the same place, that and the biggest player is the US...hard not to get pulled into that group!!!

Facta Non Verba

Offline Bratok

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 60
  • Bratok

Offline loyalist

  • Think of something clever when you see this
  • New Member
  • **
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 47
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2006, 19:26:36 »
It think all countries should take a page from the Honourable LGen Dallaire (Senate title+General's rank...wow) and ask themselves this question before sending their military off on operations:

Are we prepared to take casualties? Is the mission going to come first?

if the Bangladeshis had asked themselves this question before going to Rwanda, they wouldn't have embarrassed themsleves, Dallaire, their country or UNAMIR in the process. Canada was prepared (for the first time in awhile) to siffer casualties in Afghanistan. It's unfortunate, very unfortunate, and must be avoided, but, it does happen. If neccsary, I realise that I may become a casulaty one day. That what's people in uniform accept when they join up.
"C'est impossible! Ah, les Canadiens? C'est possible!"
French soldier learning of the Canadian captue of Vimy ridge.

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,856
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2006, 22:56:15 »
The issue was not numbers of coalition troops. The United States did not want any interference with the hunt for Bin Laden, and therefore made sure that UN troops stayed in Kabul, when they could have been in the countryside taking power from the war lords, something the US was not willing to do because it would require more man power. If there were in fact insufficient numbers of UN soldiers, this is directly due to the fact that they were stuck in Kabul, where they were ineffective. Why send more soldiers to an already stable area? If the United States had allowed an expanded mandate, I think we definitely would have seen larger numbers of troops. Remember, at this point in time, nations were virtually falling over each other to send troops to Afghanistan as 9/11 was fresh in everyone's minds.

Why you are absolutely right! It had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that most of the contributing nations were not willing to spend any real coin or send more than a Company, and that they concentrated their forces right on top of the international media, in order to be seen as helping, without really doing anything.

As for the "no mandate" I guess my humping up and down Afghan mountains on Divisional operations was just to help us feel better about ourselves as a nation - right? What were we supposed to do? Try to kill every warlord/local leader/armed man in the country? Do you have any idea how big Afghanistan is?

The Soviets were unable to pacify it aggressively with about one hundred thousand men - so how do you justify your claim that a few thousand lightly armed Europeans could pull it off?
No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline Kilo_302

  • Banned
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 5,705
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 530
Re: Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2006, 12:02:30 »
.
Quote
Dude your an idiot

Resorting to personal attacks just reduces the strength of your arguments.

Quote
Throughout 2002-2003, almost all of the UNITED NATIONS troops were confined to Kabul and its immediate neighbourhood, while the US military retained control over the rest of the country in order to hunt down the remnants of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Because the United States was reluctant to commit a large number of ground troops to Afghanistan however, the physical control of the rural areas was entrusted for the most part to the local warlords. The result  was that, while a certain degree of security and normality was restored in the capital , the interim government under Mohammed Karzai that was installed under American auspices in December 2001 never succeeded in establishing its authority over the provinces, where the war lords and their militias regained control...It was only in late 2003 that began to encourage (ie allow) the UN troops to move out into the provinces, but by then, the opportunity had all but closed: the local militias were firmly in control of the plains and the valleys, the Taliban were making a comeback in the hills, the opium industry (largely suppressed by the Taliban )was once again the world's biggest, providing much of the rural income, and the so-called national government was a despised shadow with little authority beyond city limits. Chronic insecurity led to foreign and even local development agencies withdrawing from many rural areas, and national elections originally scheduled for summer 2004 were postponed. How did all go so wrong so fast?

Gwynne Dyer

"Future: Tense, The Coming World Order"  p 164- 165

To Go!!! There are numerous sources that concur with this view, both in print and online. Look them up.