Author Topic: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]  (Read 118315 times)

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2013, 13:43:46 »
100 soldiers on warrior platoon for 6 months is 54'000 meals  (price of the food, cost of cooks prepping and cooking meals, price associated with procuring the food)


I'm not sure how much 54'000 meals cost but telling people they can't join until they pass X fitness test would save a lot of it.

Getting rid of warrior platoon would also allow dedicated trained members of the CF to put their time and effort (and CF resources) into training people who have met the standard.  More soldiers trained faster alleviating the backlogged recruiting system allowing even more to join the CF faster.

It's great that you passed Navcomm but I don't think you'll find many people here who support the extra money time and effort put into warrior platoon.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2013, 14:42:36 »
and is by no stretch of the imagination a waste of money for the CF.

This is BS.

Warrior is nothing other than a fix that was implemented to fix the decision to remove the PT test from the Reg Force recruiting process.  That's it, that's all.  The proper fix?

Implement the PT test again BEFORE the mbr is sworn in, and remove Warrior. 

You don't have enough time in yet to understand what you are saying and why it is not correct.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2013, 14:52:52 »
That may be true, and I don't believe that is the candidate's fault as much as the recruitment process. Personally, I trained for 5months before heading to BMQ, and it still wasn't enough to pass the minimum standards. Fitness comes easy to some, and not to others.

Wait.  The recruiting process is responsible for the level of personal fitness applicants and new mbr's have, or don't have?

 ::)

Quote
Getting rid of it would result in a loss of many dedicated CF personnel things returning to the way it was for DECADES before it ever existed, which is the way it should have remained.  If people are actually dedicated to the CF they will get off the couch and get make some reasonable attempt to not mimic a Butterball turkey before gracing the Green Doors with their presence.

FTFY    >:D
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Offline Emilio

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2013, 23:05:22 »
This is BS.

Warrior is nothing other than a fix that was implemented to fix the decision to remove the PT test from the Reg Force recruiting process.  That's it, that's all.  The proper fix?

Implement the PT test again BEFORE the mbr is sworn in, and remove Warrior. 

You don't have enough time in yet to understand what you are saying and why it is not correct.

So if an applicant is competitive in everything other then their physical fitness (education,work experience,maturity), they should be cast aside for other less suitable applicants?

I'm all for physical endurance being considered in the application process, but not if it means cutting out qualified applicants.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2013, 23:17:08 »
So if an applicant is competitive in everything other then their physical fitness (education,work experience,maturity), they should be cast aside for other less suitable applicants?

I'm all for physical endurance being considered in the application process, but not if it means cutting out qualified applicants.

No one is saying you change the merit list based on PT scores, but you should be doing a PT test as part of the medical/interview process. Don't pass, don't get merit listed. Oh wait, isn't that exactly how our promotion boards are right now?

You're applying for a job that has a minimum fitness standard where we can fire you for not meeting it. Not having to do it before we pay to fly you to CFLRS is a huge waste of funds we could be using elsewhere. There is no candidate so qualified that we should take them even though they didn't pass a PT test. If you were smart enough to make yourself have a competitive file, you should be smart enough to realize you need to be in shape to be successful in the CAF.

Offline EME Hopeful

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2013, 23:27:54 »
I'm just going to preface my statement by saying this is totally based off what I was told in my interview (still waiting on word if I got selected)

It seems like the current standards are set so low that it would be pretty sad if you couldn't pass.  Its not the exact words of the conversation I had with the interviewing officer but it went along the lines of

Officer : "You think you can do 20 push up straight in proper military form?"
Me: "Yes, not a problem.  I mean that sounds pretty minimal for someone applying to the military"

To which he responded: "You'd be surprised how many people can't even do 4 in a row"

To which I sat there dumbfounded until the officer moved on to a different topic

I understand that fitness comes different to different people, but it sounds like to me (like I said I can only speculate at this point) there is no reason not to be able to meet the standards that are currently set
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 23:30:50 by EME Hopeful »

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2013, 23:32:44 »
To which he responded: "You'd be surprised how many people can't even do 4 in a row"

To which I sat there dumbfounded until the officer moved on to a different topic

I understand that fitness comes different to different people, but it sounds like to me (like I said I can only speculate at this point) there is no reason not to be able to meet the standards that are currently set

And you're an applicant who has yet to see the results of a poor fitness culture in the CAF. Your attitude is what all recruits should have, not "Well, 4/5 of us WFT people can pass BMQ, we're not a waste!".

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2013, 23:33:14 »
So if an applicant is competitive in everything other then their physical fitness (education,work experience,maturity), they should be cast aside for other less suitable applicants?

I'm all for physical endurance being considered in the application process, but not if it means cutting out qualified applicants.

If you are not physically fit to do the job, all the education, work experience and maturity you talk about mean nothing.  The real life Canadian Armed Forces are very demanding physically at time.  Being able to play Call of Duty, does not a soldier make.  You have to be physically fit.  If you can not carry your weapon and ammunition, you are useless to the military.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2013, 23:46:55 »
So if an applicant is competitive in everything other then their physical fitness (education,work experience,maturity), they should be cast aside for other less suitable applicants?

I'm all for physical endurance being considered in the application process, but not if it means cutting out qualified applicants.

Would you hire me to fix your car if I was really really strong but didn't know enough about cars to fix it yet and it'll take me 6 months to learn enough to fix it, except you'll be paying me every day for 6 months until I 'm ready to fix your car and then maybe after paying me for a few more months, I might fix it.

Or, would you bypass me and go to the next guy who's able to fix your car right now.



« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 23:53:25 by ObedientiaZelum »
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Offline EME Hopeful

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2013, 00:37:53 »
I'm just going to throw this idea out there just to create a change of pace.

How about reintroducing the PT to the application process but not as an end all be all way.  What I mean is have the applicant do the PT and if they fail send them home with some work out information and a new date that he/she has to come back to do the PT again.  If he fails again then its over. 

-This way it covers those who have the commitment but don't have the know how to work out effectively,

-It weeds out those that don't have the drive (since if they fail again they have no one to blame except themselves if they were given a training plan) and would act to save some VR's when basic does start,

-It ensures that everyone being flown out to BMQ/BMOQ meet physical standards

-and it should cost the CF very little to draw up the training guidelines given to those who failed once. 

This format is also based off the CFAT where if the applicant fails the first time they're given one more shot to write it at a later date.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 00:49:46 by EME Hopeful »

Offline Brihard

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2013, 02:47:47 »
Or how about we simply post the requirements online along with simple explanations and videos of the standards, and if you choose not too achieve them then you're too lazy or fat to kill people and break their crap in pursuit of the national interest. Piss off and don't become a burden in my rifle section. I don't need someone who cannot motivate themselves to meet the frighteningly low PT standards. Our job is far too important for some feel-good participation-trophy egalitarianism.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2013, 08:13:22 »
This format is also based off the CFAT where if the applicant fails the first time they're given one more shot to write it at a later date.

That's what the CAF did before, except without the workout information. You could come back in a few months and rebook the PT test.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2013, 08:22:38 »
Seriously!  The PT testing was so basic that there really is no need for the CF to create a special training program for applicants to follow to meet the standards for enrolment.

If one failed, all they had to do was go home and start practicing Push ups and Sit ups to improve their strength and do some running to improve their cardio.  No fancy training program is required to ensure applicants can meet the standard.
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Offline EME Hopeful

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2013, 09:23:51 »
I agree with the idea that the physical standards are too low and really shouldn't need the extra help.  My earlier post should prove that.  I was just saying that as an idea as a compromise where it possibly causes less resentment.  However like I said earlier, anything I say is solely speculation based on my interview and what I was told by the officer.  I won't rehash everything in that post but simply put, I was dumbfounded when he told me how little push ups some people could do
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 09:35:57 by EME Hopeful »

Offline Towards_the_gap

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #64 on: November 25, 2013, 10:11:56 »
I was just saying that as an idea as a compromise where it possibly causes less resentment. 


Who cares?

The only resentment that a PT test failure would be entitled to is resentment at their own lazy, inactive, pampered upbringing, which obviously failed to teach them 2 of the absolute BASIC exercises ie LIE ON FLOOR, PUSH YOURSELF UP ... and SIT ON FLOOR, SIT UPRIGHT. It's not like the CF is asking them to perform a marathon or a complicated gymnastic routine to prove their fitness.

If people cannot do that then they really need to get a f&*^ing grip of their bodies.

Offline Remius

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #65 on: November 25, 2013, 10:25:28 »
I was around when they did the transition from pt test.  Pt tests were not done the same way between recruiting centres and that led to many inefficiencies.  One center would do it before the CFAT others would do it at the end of the process. Each center had its own challenges either due to geography or personel.  Testing was often contracted out and each test cost the recruiting system money.  So if you tested up front you paid for people that might fail the CFAT, medical or get a criminal/credit hit.  If you tested after the process then you might have wasted valuable medical and interview slots for a slug. 

A decision was made to risk manage the situatuion by not testing up front and let the school deal with it.  there was also a recognition that people that were highly qualified for in demand trades at the time like Naval electronics, didn't normaly have the most fit people.  It was a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.  also many people who could indeed achieve the min standard up front would also then fail at CFLRS so we wasted our time to begin with.  The min standard leads to a false sense of what it means to be in shape for basic.  Things would often get overlooked like the fact that you will likely be climbing stairs to get back to your room several times a day, pt in the morning as well as dedicated pt periods.  A bit more than the min standard of 19 push ups, sit ups and a step test.

While wanting people to be fit before they join is ideal, I think it is unrealistic.  Why? Demographics and society trends are working against us.  So we can either reject and lament our lack of expertise in certain areas or we can risk manage and bring them to our level.  The CF competes against private industry, local, provincial, national and international organisations.  Especially for in demand hot jobs right now that in some cases, it affect our operability.  We went through this with doctors, techs etc etc.  We need to adapt.  Would you rather spend a few extra weeks bringing someone up to speed or suffer serious operational deffiencies because we decided that someone wasn't fit enough at the time?

I remember that finding a doctor or a suitable NETTP candidate was like discovering oil.  So why not invest a few weeks of training to keep them?  It is probably much easier to get a one of those types up to speed physically than it is to get fit people up to speed on those trades.

Until the recruiting centers get dedicated personel and space to test applicants at the centers when they come in or society gets in shape then I doubt we'll find a suitable solution that is the most efficient.   
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Offline Bluebulldog

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #66 on: November 25, 2013, 15:13:45 »
Crantor, they already do. The CFRC puts candidates for PRes through fitness testing at their locations as a part of the enrollment process. It would be a simple matter of expanding those test days / number of slots being tested.

I couldn't for the life of me understand that while applying to the PRes years ago I was doing evening runs and push ups / sit ups, yet an applicant to the RegF, would just have to pass a medical.

Fully agree that fitness evaluation should be a part of the process prior to candidates being sent to BMQ.
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Offline EME Hopeful

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #67 on: November 25, 2013, 15:17:54 »
They seemed to have the space for it at the medical office at the Toronto RC.  Heck, they even had showers and everything in the change rooms

Offline Remius

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2013, 15:49:24 »
Crantor, they already do. The CFRC puts candidates for PRes through fitness testing at their locations as a part of the enrollment process. It would be a simple matter of expanding those test days / number of slots being tested.

I couldn't for the life of me understand that while applying to the PRes years ago I was doing evening runs and push ups / sit ups, yet an applicant to the RegF, would just have to pass a medical.

Fully agree that fitness evaluation should be a part of the process prior to candidates being sent to BMQ.

Unless things have changed, the test isn't done on location.  It was contracted out to various gyms like the YMCA.  Some CFRCs have vast geographic areas that they cover.  It really wasn't that practical.  CF gyms used to administer it but again it was very impractical as well.  Typically we used to process three files to get one candidate.  If you managed to hire 8000 people a year, you potentially tested 24000.   12000 tests that cost the system and slowed it down.

I don't know what the solution is but when you are in a high recruiting drive trying to get numbers and need them as fast as you can you have to risk manage.  Unfortunately PT and other things were streamlined.  When recruiting is down, a more strict approach can be used.

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Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2013, 15:59:54 »
This is BS.

Warrior is nothing other than a fix that was implemented to fix the decision to remove the PT test from the Reg Force recruiting process.  That's it, that's all.  The proper fix?

Implement the PT test again BEFORE the mbr is sworn in, and remove Warrior. 

You don't have enough time in yet to understand what you are saying and why it is not correct.

100% agree.

The pay and allowances, flights, meals, quarters, and room and board for a Pl (Company?) sized element amounts to a huge amount of money and positions poorly utilized. We only have so many positions, lets use them to put people into their jobs, not design a forced work-out diet plan for the less motivated.
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Offline Bluebulldog

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2013, 16:07:46 »
Unless things have changed, the test isn't done on location.  It was contracted out to various gyms like the YMCA.  Some CFRCs have vast geographic areas that they cover.  It really wasn't that practical.  CF gyms used to administer it but again it was very impractical as well.  Typically we used to process three files to get one candidate.  If you managed to hire 8000 people a year, you potentially tested 24000.   12000 tests that cost the system and slowed it down.

I don't know what the solution is but when you are in a high recruiting drive trying to get numbers and need them as fast as you can you have to risk manage.  Unfortunately PT and other things were streamlined.  When recruiting is down, a more strict approach can be used.

Depends.

When I went in in 1994, it was done at the YMCA in Hamilton, a few blocks away from CFRC Hamilton.

When I went back in in 2009, I did the fit test right in the CFRC in Barrie ON.

Agreed, it adds a ton of front end bottleneck, but if you weigh out the costs of having a candidate in the Warrior platoon until fit enough to move on in training, vs. additional testing at the entry level prior to enrollment, it might even just be a wash.....
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2013, 16:12:57 »
So if an applicant is competitive in everything other then their physical fitness (education,work experience,maturity), they should be cast aside for other less suitable applicants?

I'm all for physical endurance being considered in the application process, but not if it means cutting out qualified applicants.

You and many others are not getting the point here. 

IF YOU ARE NOT PHYSCIALLY FIT TO THE BARE MINIMUM STANDARD...MINIMUM STANDARD...YOU ARE NOT A SUITABLE APPLICANT.

It really, really can't be explained any more simply than that. 
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 16:16:47 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Remius

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2013, 17:24:55 »
Agreed, it adds a ton of front end bottleneck, but if you weigh out the costs of having a candidate in the Warrior platoon until fit enough to move on in training, vs. additional testing at the entry level prior to enrollment, it might even just be a wash.....

The three biggest producing centers at the time I was there (Ottawa, Halifax and QC) didn't test on location. 

This is the thing (quoted above).  Everybody that was tested cost money.  There was a cost per person paid to whoever was contracted out to do the test.  the recruiting system would also get charged for no shows.  Also of note, that most people didn't know, was that out of town applicants were paid mileage, parking and in most cases lunch to come get processed.  So if we use the 8000 hires plus the 12,000 processed,  it is potentially 24000 pt tests (depends on where the test was in the processing cycle) and 20% being out of town that's 6800 paid for mileage and meals and parking.  Possibly twice if they have to return for any part of the test (which wasn't uncommon).

Now weigh that with the fact that a percentage of recruits would fail the PT test at St-Jean, regardless of them passing the PT test at the recruiting stage.  The difference, it was calculated was negligible as far as testing at the front end may not even be worth it.

As well when looking at keeping people in that had skills we could use, adding weeks to the course was seen as worth it since it could be months or even a year in order to get a replacement for that particular position.  And since you already invested in that person, the hope is to get them to where you need them rather than send them home since you already paid for travel, storage etc.

Not only that but most people that washed out would not return, losing out on key trades.  It was surmised that by adding the training they would stay on and be retained.

It would be interesting to see all the data on the success or failure of the system to see if it is indeed worth it.

I do however remember the uproar it caused amongst us at my CFRC.  None of us were pleased with the change.
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2013, 18:04:19 »
So if an applicant is competitive in everything other then their physical fitness (education,work experience,maturity), they should be cast aside for other less suitable applicants?

Speaking as one applicant to another, the way I understand it is that if there are certain components required to be successful upto and including the physical upon entry to BMQ and ANY of them are not met, then the candidate is not suitable. All the puzzle pieces make up the big picture of the applicant. And in my specific instance, I've literally had 2+ yrs to meet everything asked of me during the process, since I knew of the physical requirements as soon as I applied. If I cannot meet standard by the time I get to basic (assuming I do) then I have no one to blame but myself.

I understand your point that there should be a second chance for failure of the physical just like there is for other elements of the hiring process. I just don't happen to agree. Since you are offered a job beFORE you do the physical, that's a gift, IMO. It's up to the applicant to be ready.
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Offline NavComm87

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Re: Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2013, 19:41:46 »
I will be the first to admit that I did not know how to work out properly before basic. PT has never come easily to me, but I have been given the tools to work on this deficiency.

Having said this, I did not spend my last few months as a civilian bumming around playing video games - I built up my cardio. Unfortunately, I didn't do enough.

One key aspect of WFT is that once the candidate hits platoon, they are better equipped with knowledge and experience of residing at CFLRS, that they are usually seen as a benefit to a new platoon.

Regardless of what anyone's belief on this forum is, warrior will remain, at least until change of leadership at CFLRS.

*edited for typo*
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 19:55:37 by NavComm87 »