Bringing back the 19th Alberta Dragoons, split from Re: Halifax Rifles

[Dennis Ruhl]

The revival of The Halifax Rifles got me thinking about my pet militia unit the 19th Alberta Dragoons plus some other historic regiments.  I added up a few numbers and was shocked.  Northern Alberta has 1 historical militia unit in 1 location.  The Maritimes have 9 regiments in 23 locations.  The populations are similar.

I used to go to national militia courses and there were endless regiments represented.  I didn't understand at the time that existence of militia units was a political thing and not a fair representation thing.

The 19th Alberta Dragoons were struck in 1965 and scheduled to be revived in 1978.  When they were revived it was as B Sqn, The South Alberta Light Horse, a unit 600 km away with very tentative historical connections ie none.  A total coincidence was that Bud Olson, a Liberal cabinet minister, was Honourary Colonel of the SALH.

The simple renaming of an existing unit seems to create a brick wall.  The Cape Breton Highlanders exist, why aren't they called the Cape Breton Highlanders?  The North Shore (New Brunswick) Regiment exists, why can't it be called The North Shore (New Brunswick) Regiment.  An infantry unit exists in Saint John.  Why can't it be called the Saint John Fusiliers or the New Brunswick Rangers, both or The New Brunswick Rangers (Saint John Fusiliers) or the reverse.  It is not simple sentimentality.  Having units with historically significant local names takes nothing away from their existing structure.

I suggest anyone on northern Alberta who is displeased with their region being represented by 1/23 of the militia of other regions to contact their MP.  I think they're getting tired of me.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Maj Gallant!  Time flies, I was his C c/s not that many years ago and have worked with him many times since then and shared some good laughs and a few pints over the years.  I am curious who the RSM is, anyone know?

Dennis,

Cape Breton isn't a province, its part of Nova Scotia, hence why they are called 2 NSH.  I've known many of them and never heard them complain about their name. 

I don't know many people who 'join the militia' anymore.  Lots do join the Army Reserves though.

 

[dapaterson]

The Army Reserve is over-headquartered already; the Hfx Rifles have been restored to the ORBAT as a purely local political move by a local politico, the MND.  (Look at the date of the original announcement - then look at the date a writ was dropped.  Not subtle at all.)  An objective assessment would see fewer Reserve unit HQs, not more - but fewer HQs with more sub-units beneath them.

We don't need more RHQs - we need more Sqns, Batteries and Coys with real troops.  The 19th Dragoon option, of amalgamating units to provide one CO with a greater span of control should be the norm, not the exception.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Dennis,

Cape Breton isn't a province, its part of Nova Scotia, hence why they are called 2 NSH.  I've known many of them and never heard them complain about their name. 

I don't know many people who 'join the militia' anymore.  Lots do join the Army Reserves though.

Thanks for the Geography lesson.  So Calgary is a province.  Is Seaforth?

I just fail to understand the need to create new names for old things back in the 1950s when nothing changed in the battalions other than names.

We all called it the militia.  I suppose some people nobody like called it army reserves.  The militia won all the wars, the Army Reserves are duct tape for the regular army.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

The Army Reserve is over-headquartered already; the Hfx Rifles have been restored to the ORBAT as a purely local political move by a local politico, the MND.  An objective assessment would see fewer Reserve unit HQs, not more - but fewer HQs with more sub-units beneath them.

We don't need more RHQs - we need more Sqns, Batteries and Coys with real troops.  The 19th Dragoon option, of amalgamating units to provide one CO with a greater span of control should be the norm, not the exception.

As I've learned all militia units that have survived have done so by political means.  20 years ago, at least, regimental headquarters had maybe 6 soldiers gaining valuable administration experience.  Maybe there's more paper today.

The SALH has one CO in Medicine Hat but the Edmonton squadron was in a different militia district and operated independently and had a headquarters not unlike a regiment.  They are 600 km apart - seriously.  The naming was political not administrative.  The SALH had previously been threatened with extinction and co-opting the unit in Edmonton was insurance.

 

[dapaterson]

The militia won all the wars, the Army Reserves are duct tape for the regular army.

What a load of tripe.

"The militia" in WW2 spent 3-4 years training on the Salisbury Plain before deploying to Italy or France.  After that length of full-time training, the differences between militia and regular were semantic at best.

To view "the militia" as a stand alone organization outside the larger Army and outside the larger CF is a one way path to oblivion.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Another great and often perpetuated myth is the degree of participation by the Militia in the First and Second World Wars. A simple comparison of Reserve strength figures prior to each war to the numbers deployed overseas in 1914 and 1939 quickly dispels this claim. The number of trained personnel in the Canadian Militia for the year 1913-14 was only 57,527 while the Canadian Expeditionary Force saw a total of 628,462 Canadians in its service.

While a better case may be made for the participation of the Militia in the mobilization of 1939, their role was as often to form local defence units as it was to help generate battalions for the Canadian Active Service Force. Granatstein notes that "the Permanent Force had only 4,261 all ranks in mid-1939, every unit being under strength."  The Militia saw another 46,251 train in 1938-39.  So who, exactly, were the other men and women that made up the wartime strength of the Canadian Army, which saw the service of 730,625  soldiers and support personnel, in Canada and abroad, during the Second World War. They were Canadians, not the Regular Army of pre-war years, and equally not the Reserves to the degree some would advocate. They were Canadians, most of whom had given little thought to Army service before 1939.

Article link.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

What a load of tripe.

"The militia" in WW2 spent 3-4 years training on the Salisbury Plain before deploying to Italy or France.  After that length of full-time training, the differences between militia and regular were semantic at best.

To view "the militia" as a stand alone organization outside the larger Army and outside the larger CF is a one way path to oblivion.

Nothing wrong with tripe - ever eat a weiner?

So 90% of battalion commanders and most of the company commanders didn't come from the pre-war militia?  Given a 20 to 1 expansion of forces nobody would expect the complete army to be composed of milita.  Or is this more tripe.

Into the 1950s the militia was the primary defense force in Canada.  The stated purpose of the army was the training of the militia.  Until the 1950s the Canadian army, consisted of 3, usually understrength, battalions.

 

[Scott]

Nothing wrong with tripe - ever eat a weiner?

I'm sure the more seasoned posters here are ignoring this statement and treating it as I see it, as a troll. I, however, will not ignore you. Knock it off. If you have something to contribute then please do so, otherwise keep little snipes like that to yourself. This will be your only warning.

Scott
Army.ca Staff

 

[Monsoon]

The revival of The Halifax Rifles got me thinking about my pet militia unit the 19th Alberta Dragoons plus some other historic regiments.  I added up a few numbers and was shocked.  Northern Alberta has 1 historical militia unit in 1 location.  The Maritimes have 9 regiments in 23 locations.  The populations are similar.

I don't know what numbers you added up but according to LFWA, northern Alberta has 6 units in 41 CBG: The Loyal Edmonton Regiment, 20th Field Regiment, The South Alberta Light Horse (in Edmonton), 41 CER, 15 Svc Bn, and 15 Field Ambulance. The lesser number of locations is probably due to the fact that the population of northern Alberta is located principally in Edmonton; there's no need for 23 detachments all over the map the way you'd need to get the same number of people in the Maritimes. The western alienation bandwagon doesn't play the tune you're asking it to.

Sure, they may not all be "historical" regiments, but... who cares? Maybe 15 Svc Bn would get more recruits if it were called the Kilted and Loyal Company of Service Provisioners (Edmontonians), but The Management doesn't seem to think so.

 

[Teflon]

the Kilted and Loyal Company of Service Provisioners (Edmontonians)

That';s got a real catchy ring to it, but I can't see dancing to it! 

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

I'm sure the more seasoned posters here are ignoring this statement and treating it as I see it, as a troll. I, however, will not ignore you. Knock it off. If you have something to contribute then please do so, otherwise keep little snipes like that to yourself. This will be your only warning.

Scott
Army.ca Staff

Sorry, it's just that while going to university I had a summer job making weiners and actually know what goes into them.  No disruption meant.  Tripe is simply a cow's stomach with the lining removed.

 

[Michael OLeary]

None of us should get wrapped up in thinking only combat arms units with battle honours, etc., are worthy of eternal existence and lobbying support groups.  There are more than enough references on these forums to shortfalls in many supporting trades that would support a strong argument that any new or reroled Reserve units should be predominantly combat support and service support units.

 

[Newt]

I think it's more likely we'll see 3 R NFLD R stood up in Fort McMurray than ever see the 19th Alberta Dragoons reactivated.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

I think it's more likely we'll see 3 R NFLD R stood up in Fort McMurray than ever see the 19th Alberta Dragoons reactivated.

Don't put any money on it.  It was reactivated in 1978 but the name was changed to the SALH.  All the early recruits thought they were 19th Ds

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

The lesser number of locations is probably due to the fact that the population of northern Alberta is located principally in Edmonton; there's no need for 23 detachments all over the map the way you'd need to get the same number of people in the Maritimes. The western alienation bandwagon doesn't play the tune you're asking it to.

Approximately half the population of northern Alberta lives in Edmonton.  Red Deer, Fort Mcmurray, and Grande Prairie have in excess of 50,000 people and no infantry or armoured units.  St. Albert and Sherwood Park are in the Edmonton region with similar size.  The Lloydminster area has 25,000 people and no militia unit.  There are at maybe a dozen more cities and cities with over 10,000, candidates for sub-units. Over its history the 19th Ds had units in 17 different towns.

I am not sure what western alienation has to do with anything.  I am trying to work within the system.  It just so happens that some of my friends hold high office and might appreciate what they're hearing.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

None of us should get wrapped up in thinking only combat arms units with battle honours, etc., are worthy of eternal existence and lobbying support groups.  There are more than enough references on these forums to shortfalls in many supporting trades that would support a strong argument that any new or reroled Reserve units should be predominantly combat support and service support units.

Most WWI battalions went through 6-7,000 soldiers to maintain 850 or somewhat more in the field.  The WWII average may have been half that as most units fought for less than a year.  Do you plan for the first day of a war or the last day?

 

[Newt]

Probably time for a thread split.

I agree in principle that detachments in some of the smaller cities in Alberta would be a good thing. I'm told that the reserve units in Calgary (Calgary Highlanders, King's Own Calgary Regiment, 41 CER, 14 SVC, HMCS Techumseh, 746 Communications) are having trouble recruiting and retaining; if I'm wrong on that please correct me. If a city of over a million people has trouble recruiting and retaining, how feasible would it be in a city of 50,000?

I doubt cities like Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray could sustain anything above platoon or troop strength (I would love to be proven wrong,) and a detachment like that raises some serious logistical issues. How does a detachment that remote train with the rest of the regiment? What about vehicle maintenance, are we going to co-locate sections from the service battalions?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Most WWI battalions went through 6-7,000 soldiers to maintain 850 or somewhat more in the field.  The WWII average may have been half that as most units fought for less than a year.  Do you plan for the first day of a war or the last day?

Which war are you planning for? What military threat are you perceiving we must be ready to counter? How will one reserve armoured recce subunit tip the balance in our favour?

Have you seen any documents that define a specific military threat that support the raising of your "pet militia unit"?

The system you are working within, as the Halifax Rifles did, is a political one, not a military one.  Please do not try and say there is an historical military justification when that is not the basis of your argument.

 

[Infanteer]

The Army Reserve is over-headquartered already; the Hfx Rifles have been restored to the ORBAT as a purely local political move by a local politico, the MND.  (Look at the date of the original announcement - then look at the date a writ was dropped.  Not subtle at all.)  An objective assessment would see fewer Reserve unit HQs, not more - but fewer HQs with more sub-units beneath them.

We don't need more RHQs - we need more Sqns, Batteries and Coys with real troops.  The 19th Dragoon option, of amalgamating units to provide one CO with a greater span of control should be the norm, not the exception.

What he said....

I swear some people would want to reform the "29th Lower York Fencibles" because they fended off some Fenian raid and are this instrumental to maintaining tradition and cohesion in today's Army.