Author Topic: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]  (Read 49865 times)

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Offline eurowing

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2012, 11:27:19 »
I would agree with the program as well.  My brother is a carpenter who consistently made much more money than I over my 33 year career. He actually decided to take a break from carpentry and apprenticed as a scaffolder in Fort McMoney. IIRC, I was making around 72K a year as a WO, supervising 40 people maintaining aircraft,  my brother pulled in 90K, as an apprentice!  My son-in-law is a scaffolder as well, when we compared wages he was taken aback, stating he didn't ever remember making so little. 

Construction pays well.  Good luck to the program.
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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2012, 12:10:48 »
People need to change their mindset. For years everyone's been told that if you don't have a professional white collar job (doctor, lawyer, etc) and a university degree you were nothing and no one would hire you. That kind of thinking gutted the skilled trades.

No one, now, can find plumbers, electricians, masons, metal cutters, carpenters, cabinet makers and the list goes on.

All the above and any other 'working with your hands' trades are all viable and honourable professions that need people and support. The program should be expanded to cover all of these.
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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2012, 13:16:31 »
For a guy who just wants a job that he doesn't take home at night and doesn't aspire to run his own company, earning upwards of $60.00 an hour with plenty of overtime after 4 or 5 years isn't such a terrible deal.  I can't speak for all trades, but in mine there is no question that the journeyman's earning potential is well into 6 figures.

And skilled trades are all goal-oriented, and rewarded with how hard you work. A lot of military members would find this attractive as opposed to working with some parts of the public service on priority hire, and then have to deal with the red-tape they hated for the 25 years they served.

Offline dogger1936

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2012, 14:28:26 »
And skilled trades are all goal-oriented, and rewarded with how hard you work. A lot of military members would find this attractive as opposed to working with some parts of the public service on priority hire, and then have to deal with the red-tape they hated for the 25 years they served.

Thats a very good point.

Offline exabedtech

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2012, 15:52:31 »
And skilled trades are all goal-oriented, and rewarded with how hard you work. A lot of military members would find this attractive as opposed to working with some parts of the public service on priority hire, and then have to deal with the red-tape they hated for the 25 years they served.

They sure are!  I was 21 years in the army, released 3B, took a public service job and found that I hated working with less challenge, less opportunity and a fixed pay rate that worked the same for me as it did for the CE guy sleeping all day in a barrack TV room - yes, I was CE. 
My trade gave me the opportunity to really change the direction of my life for the better rather than settling down into a semi-retired state at only 41 years old. 
For some guys, Public service is the way to go and I hate to put it down, but you better not be an ambitious sort of person if that's where you hope to be.  No doubt someone on here has had some amazing experiences with a 6 figure paying PS job but we all know that that is the very very slim minority of available opportunities.
For a guy who likes a challenge, likes to work with his/her hands and likes to see an end product you can be proud of at the end of the job, the trades offer a lot of opportunity.  Suggest you brush up on the math/physics at the army's expense first though!!!

Offline Pusser

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2012, 00:48:23 »
I'm pretty sure he was talking about combat arms soldiers having zero transferable "trades". Not many lav commander jobs in North Sydney like a EME,clerk, wpns tech would have.


This is the attitude that needs to be corrected.  Far too often we tend to read too much into the idea of "experience" and "training."  Yes, there is job specific experience and training, and sometimes that is required, but more often than not, any and all experience and training can be useful and helpful.  Anybody who can troubleshoot a jammed GPMG and get it working again under fire, is probably also pretty good at troubleshooting equipment on a construction site....
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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2012, 02:50:29 »
No one, now, can find plumbers, electricians, masons, metal cutters, carpenters, cabinet makers and the list goes on.

This is very true.  I have seen, heard and read many articles about this in the past 10years or so; it is quite a vacuum.  Ever since my days in high school in the 80s, most persons have sought after either white collar or CPU type careers and it was only the "dumb" guys that learned a trade.  Those few dumb guys are now few and far between and could probably charge pretty much whatever they want for their services. 

Anyone who has tried to get a contractor in for a relatively small job can testify to how long it takes to get them in; which is why the unaccredited "handyman" types are plentiful.

 

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2012, 07:55:48 »
Quote
I'm pretty sure he was talking about combat arms soldiers having zero transferable "trades". Not many lav commander jobs in North Sydney like a EME,clerk, wpns tech would have.
This is the attitude that needs to be corrected.  Far too often we tend to read too much into the idea of "experience" and "training."  Yes, there is job specific experience and training, and sometimes that is required, but more often than not, any and all experience and training can be useful and helpful.  Anybody who can troubleshoot a jammed GPMG and get it working again under fire, is probably also pretty good at troubleshooting equipment on a construction site....
Indeed - there's an awful lot of work ethic, team participation and problem solving skills that come with soldiering that can be applied to loads of other workplaces.  Think of them as "generic work skills" as opposed to "specific military task skills".

No one, now, can find plumbers, electricians, masons, metal cutters, carpenters, cabinet makers and the list goes on.

All the above and any other 'working with your hands' trades are all viable and honourable professions that need people and support. The program should be expanded to cover all of these.
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Offline DirtyDog

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2012, 10:42:14 »
... I think the average CF vet is overqualified for construction jobs and it would be a step backwards for some?
 
I believe you have deep misconceptions of the "construction" industry.  I know a lot of truly intelligent and dynamic people in the trades and it's difficult to finder harder workers.
Also, I'm not sure to which group in particular you to reffer to when you speak of "vets", whether is it's the 20-30 year retirees or those who've just finished a 3-6 year stint?  In the case of the latter, i beleive you overestimate a lot of them as well.l  Truly, there are some extremely competent folks in that lot, but few of them, especially in the NCM ranks, would I say moving onto a professional tradesmen job would be a step backwards.

I think too many people think of the average construction worker as some dude turning signs on the highway or slopping muck out of a ditch.  I know a lot of people in the military, especially the younger generation that would find it difficult keeping at it day in and day out without the generous holidays and, at times, forgiving schedules, that the CF affords.  In peace time garrisons, 10-14 hour days with short breaks is typically unheard of.  I know a lot of trademens putting in long hours, day in day out, either for themselves or for an employer, and have been doing so for years.  They get well compensated believe me, but it demands a serious work ethic as well in a lot of cases significant professional competence.  Not only from a work ethic standpoint, but dynamic, hands-on thinking with a strong dose of techinical knowledge is a requirement to succeed in a lot of trades today as well.  Not all soldiers possess that....

Offline DirtyDog

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2012, 10:51:12 »
Then an aprenticeship program in the construction industry is a good option for a good paying second career for those short on transferable skills. I've been seeing alot of negative reactions to this on Facebook as well and i don't understand the objections.
Too many misconceptions.  I left the industry to serve.  6 years down the road and more than a few rank levels, I'm not anywhere neare where I used to be in pay and believe it or not, have not encountered many of the challenges and accomplishments that went along with it.

I want to return to the industry sooner than later, this time into a little more specialized and technical trade with the goal of my running my own business, and the last 6 years has been a huge boon to me on a personal and professional development front.  I'm eagerly awaiting the meat and potatoes of this program.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 11:05:00 by DirtyDog »

Offline DirtyDog

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2012, 10:54:06 »
I think many of the objections are due to the fact that it's the same thing offered to civilians as well...just a "rebranding" of sorts to make it appear any different than whats being offered to high school students. I also think much of the confusion lays in the fact most of our injured from our past decade of war fighting would stay in the military if they were fit enough to work construction. I started off in construction prior to the military in construction...and that aint easy work on the body. Add in a bunch of injuries not a really great place for a injured soldier to be.
Not all construction work is demanding on the body and I didn't think this program was really intended as one for our wounded vets.

I do agree however about the "rebranding'.  It doesn't seem to differ much from the subsidies already in place for apprenticeship programs and what not.  I guess we'll see....

Offline MCG

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2012, 11:03:11 »
... I didn't think this program was really intended as one for our wounded vets.
I think you are correct.  This is a program for all veterans.  In other words, it is aimed as much at the wounded as it is aimed at the guy completing his first engagement and deciding to move to some other pasture.  At a time when many of our own construction engineering trades are hurting, I hope this new program does not start competing to heavily for healthy, capable pers who might otherwise have considered an alternate career within the CF.

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2012, 11:45:04 »
I think you are correct.  This is a program for all veterans.  In other words, it is aimed as much at the wounded as it is aimed at the guy completing his first engagement and deciding to move to some other pasture.  At a time when many of our own construction engineering trades are hurting, I hope this new program does not start competing to heavily for healthy, capable pers who might otherwise have considered an alternate career within the CF.

I think you will find that guys completing their first engagement and deciding to move to some other pasture probably wouldn't have stayed in. This program at least allows an alternative to putting him/her on the street and saying "have at it". It gives direction.
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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2012, 11:54:42 »
I can't help but echo what Mike Rowe said:

"We talk about millions of shovel ready jobs for a society that doesn't really encourage picking up a shovel."

If this program helps to reverse that trend, the it's worth it. In addition, if it provides direction and an alternative for newly released or retired members, the it's also worth it.
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Offline DirtyDog

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2012, 13:54:45 »
Just about everyone I know in a skilled trade (and it's a lot) are doing very well for themselves and have done so from a young age without being saddled with any student loan debt.  some of the more forward thinking guys I know will have their homes payed off before they hit 30 and still enjoy a comfortable lifestyle with all the toys guys their age are into.

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2012, 14:28:36 »
Just about everyone I know in a skilled trade (and it's a lot) are doing very well for themselves and have done so from a young age without being saddled with any student loan debt.  some of the more forward thinking guys I know will have their homes payed off before they hit 30 and still enjoy a comfortable lifestyle with all the toys guys their age are into.

And all it takes is a little hard work and some hours that don't start at 9 and end at 5. I would say its amazing more people don't take advantage of this job boom in the skilled trades, but my generation is full of lazy, lazy people.

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2012, 15:25:41 »
And all it takes is a little hard work and some hours that don't start at 9 and end at 5. I would say its amazing more people don't take advantage of this job boom in the skilled trades, but my generation is full of lazy, lazy people.
Some of it may also be parents thinking "I worked with my hands, so I want better for my son/daughter so s/he doesn't have to."
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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2012, 15:33:31 »
Some of it may also be parents thinking "I worked with my hands, so I want better for my son/daughter so s/he doesn't have to."
It doesn't help that our society constantly pushes the idea that kids MUST get a post-secondary education nowadays.  Everyone's always on me about making sure I'm puttign away money for my children's (only have one due shortly right now) college/university fund and it's funny the looks I get (usually down noses) when I reply "What if he/she doesn't need or want to go to university?".

Not that I don't budget to put a little away to help with education down the road, but this mentality that you'll be some poor destitude slob without a piece of paper to hang on the wall is ridiculous.  As is the idea of getting such a piece a paper just to get one, with no firm plan on how to utilise it.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 16:42:51 by DirtyDog »

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2012, 15:45:36 »
It doesn't help that our society constantly pushes the idea that kids MUST get a post-secondary education nowadays.  Everyone's always on me about making sure I'm puttign away money for my children's (only have one due shortly right now) college/university fund and it's funny the looks I get (usually down noses) when I reply "What if he/she doesn't need or want to go to university?".

Not that I don't budget to put a little away to help with education down the road, but this mentality that you'll be some poor destitude slob with a piece of paper to hang on the wall is ridiculous.  As is the idea of getting such a piece a paper just to get one, with no firm plan on how to utilise it.
VERY good point - I'd think it's good to have the $ set aside in case Jr. wants to do work needing post-secondary, but it's also good to guide Jr. into a trade if s/he has a different (but still very necessary) kind of smarts than "book" smarts.  I say that having seen my own mom (who came from Italy with no more than Grade 4 but trained as a seamstress) who could look at a picture in a magazine and build it from scratch - I've seen folks bring in pictures for bridesmaid dresses and see her do it.  Book smarts?  Not so much.  Another kind of valuable smarts?  For sure.  We need to encourage those who show this kind of smarts that you can make a good living even without a sheepskin.
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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2012, 16:01:20 »
Some of it may also be parents thinking "I worked with my hands, so I want better for my son/daughter so s/he doesn't have to."

Until we have robots building things, there will always be people needed to be labourers. I personally see nothing wrong with an honest-days wage working with your hands, and even find it rewarding to look at a house and say "I helped build that". Our parents may have worked with their hands for a low wage but kids in my generation can gain far more using better tools in safer conditions that our forefathers ever did. They just need to want to work for it, and that's whats lacking I find.

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2012, 16:37:35 »
I say that having seen my own mom (who came from Italy with no more than Grade 4 but trained as a seamstress) who could look at a picture in a magazine and build it from scratch - I've seen folks bring in pictures for bridesmaid dresses and see her do it.  Book smarts?  Not so much.  Another kind of valuable smarts?  For sure.  We need to encourage those who show this kind of smarts that you can make a good living even without a sheepskin.

 :goodpost:
I was in the "outside workers" union. We had machinists, carpenters, welders, electricians,,,you name it.
I got to know a lot of them over the years, and had a great deal of respect for the work they did.

I hope this "Helmet to Hardhat" program is successful, ( for those who are interested in it ). It reminds me of the scene in an old movie when a construction foreman asks, "Do you know anything about building?" The veteran says, "No, but there's one thing I do know. I know how to learn, same as I learned that job up there.":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU0d3DVcKoY
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 16:42:06 by mariomike »

Offline exabedtech

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2012, 19:12:03 »
Construction work isn't for everyone.  If you're that army guy who puts in the minimum effort, expects things handed to you, can't comprehend working past 4:30, needs thorough and complete direction to accomplish a task and requires constant 'admin time' to go about your daily life then you better find a way to stay in the military forever.

Construction work is a daily challenge. You are building things, repairing things, conceptualizing things often without any plan, minimal plan or an unworkable plan yet there is no option other than success.  There are deadlines and they will hit you in the pocketbook if you fail.
 
I certainly had my challenges serving a couple decades in the army, but never at the level of running a contracting business.  I find it incredible that someone might think of this sort of work as mindless.  That attitude could only come from an over inflated belief in their own worth to society or a blissful ignorance of what sort of process may have been involved in constructing, heating, plumbing, electrifying, networking and operating the buildings they spend so much time in.  A big part of the reason we have a shortage of skilled trades is that the level of skill required has gone through the roof over the past couple dozen years. 

Do not get yourself in a knot over 'experience' and 'training'.  When I hire apprentices, i'm looking for commitment, intelligence and reliability.  One the best I ever hired had been working as a ski lift operator.  Another was a PTSD case from the PPCLI.  I used to assume that being military meant that a candidate was bringing reliability and understood the meaning of timings.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  What I have learned is that the army often leaves its soldiers in a similar 'institutionalized' state as the unfortunate older black guy from 
The Shawshank Redemption.  Years of being told exactly what to do and how to do it combined with a self-contained system of medical, dental, material and administrative support can leave a person unprepared to function in the real world.

If you are military and looking for civilian work, you need to emphasis that you are adaptable, intelligent, free-thinking, committed and can deal with your own problems on your own time.  Expect to be challenged, expect to work long hours and expect to be well compensated for it. 

I find it very gratifying when I walk into a structure I helped build and know that it will be there serving a real purpose for years to come.  If you're the sort of person that takes a great deal of pride in what you do and enjoys the sense of accomplishment that comes with a job well done, then the trades are for you.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 19:19:02 by exabedtech »

Offline exabedtech

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2012, 19:32:12 »
I would rather them give vets priority for public service jobs, and I think the average CF vet is overqualified for construction jobs and it would be a step backwards for some?
 

Vets DO have priority for public service jobs and I can't help but wonder what makes you think that someone without the years of training and experience in a trade might possibly be 'overqualified'.  As for a 'step backwards', I suppose you'd need to define that one.  If its about the mental challenge, as a master electrician I can assure you there is plenty of that.  If its about the money, I get by just fine on 3 times my old army pay thank you very much.
If you have an aptitude for it, and lots of military retirees do, this is rewarding, challenging and well paying work that also happens to be in demand. 

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2012, 19:40:16 »
'overqualified'........... 'step backwards',

Some have bought into the ego-boosting mentality that soldiering, while noble, is the be-all-end-all and somehow superior to anything and everything in society.

Former soldiers, of any trade, have much to offer civilian employers but it is important to remember that it is a different world out there. Unfortunate that some, out of ignorance and misguided superiority, will dismiss great opportunities.

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Re: Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2012, 19:42:56 »
Vets who have been medically released DO have priority for public service jobs

Fixed that for you...