Author Topic: Question about foreign service, medals and badges and para course for C.I.C.  (Read 63581 times)

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Offline SFSG

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It's my first post in here, I did search for about 2 hours on this forum but couldn't find any info on my specific question!

I served with the British 1st parachute regiment for a bit more then 5 years
Over the years I served in Iraq, Afghanistan and more
I did cumulate medals and also my British para wing
I will be returning home to Canada soon and I was thinking about joining my ex cadet Corp to become a CIC officer. I am wondering if I'm accepted and join the CIC will I be allowed to wear my British medals on my CF and my para wings?

I read a tread about foreign para wing but it was only talking about CF members serving in other countries and not about old military personal that have served with a foreign country.

Also if I join the CIC will there be a chance for me to maybe try out and go for the Canadian parachute training program?
Although it might be boring considering the fact that I am qualified for H.A.L.O. , H.A.H.O. And of course static line jumps. It still could be nice to represent the para here in Canada also.
paras don't die, we re-group in hell

Offline CRMA

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If you think you'll be bored if you cant do HALO and HAHO jumps, dont you think you'll get bored being in the CIC...

Offline SFSG

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If you think you'll be bored if you cant do HALO and HAHO jumps, dont you think you'll get bored being in the CIC...
I'm not saying the course will be boring in anyway, if I can do it I'll crack on and do it! What I'm saying is that it's going to be a hell lot different then what I was used of.
C.I.C. Is not boring as you say! I think a great deal of the C.I.C job is to steer and help youth and that's what I want to do! And it will still keep me in a some what "military environment"
If I wanted to still be a soldier don't you think I wouldve stayed in the army?
Lol
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Offline BulletMagnet

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To answer you question,

No you are not allowed to wear foreign wings in CF uniform unless you are in the country who has given them to you. So in Canada no if you and your cadets take a trip to England then yes you may put them on your dress uniform.

As for Medals If they are NATO issue medals then you may wear them. If they are for missions non NATO authorized and/or Home nation specific then you cannot wear them, Such as your current Iraq medal but likely you could wear Afghanistan.

Medals such as N.Ireland are a for sure no as that is a home nation specific

EDIT: Spelling
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 10:37:03 by BulletMagnet »
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MikeL

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Some CIC Officers have attended the Basic Para Course

Also, you say you were in the 1st parachute regiment? Do you mean 1st Battalion of The Parachute Regiment? I assume so since your username is SFSG which is what 1Para belongs too.


Offline SFSG

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So basically I can were my NATO Afghanistan medal and my Afghanistan op herrick service medal but not my Op Telic Iraq one since Canada wasn't involve. Cheers mate!

What about the MC( military cross) and the golden jubilee ?

1st battalion of the British parachute regiment
SFSG based in MOD St Athan since 2009
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 10:45:18 by SFSG »
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aesop081

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Op Telic

Tell Everyone Leave Is Cancelled

 ;D

I worked in gagetown with an Ex-Brit who wore his Falklands medal. You may be able to wear your Iraq one.

Offline Strike

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To answer you question,

No you are not allowed to wear foreign wings in CF uniform unless you are in the country who has given them to you. So in Canada no if you and your cadets take a trip to England then yes you may put them on your dress uniform.

As for Medals If they are NATO issue medals then you may wear them. If they are for missions non NATO authorized and/or Home nation specific then you cannot wear them, Such as your current Iraq medal but likely you could wear Afghanistan.

Medals such as N.Ireland are a for sure no as that is a home nation specific

EDIT: Spelling

Not too sure about the wings thing.  I know of a fighter pilot who is now in the Canadian Air Force who earned his wings through the UK when he was with their Air Force.  Of course, his training was done in Moose Jaw, so that may have something to do with it.
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Quote
CFAO 18-6 -- COMMONWEALTH AND FOREIGN ORDERS, DECORATIONS AND MEDALS



6.       A member who was awarded an order, decoration or medal by a foreign power prior to enrolment may be granted approval to wear the insignia and ribbon while in uniform. To obtain approval the member shall submit a written request to the member's commanding officer (CO), accompanied by documentary proof of the award. The CO shall forward the request with the
original or photocopy of the documentary proof, through normal channels, to NDHQ/DC.

7.       If a member is granted authority to wear a foreign award, a copy of the authority shall be filed on the Unit Personnel Record and the NDHQ personal document file.

That should include all of your medals as they emanate from HM.


For your wings, you will likely have to seek authority up the chain. If you want to attend the CF Para course... don't hold your breath. As a CIC officer you would be well down the priority list (likely falling off the bottom of it).
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Offline BulletMagnet

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My understanding came from Ex-Brit members serving now with the CF in terms of medals

For the wings that is the CF policy I havent the power to look up the dress reg on it. Though I have seen it quoted here a few times and around my old unit.
"Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence" Cpl Jordan Anderson 1981-2007 RIP

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Offline SFSG

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Cheers mates! Good info! Glade to know that I might have the chance to represent my military service in Canada even if I want to be a cic!
As guess it will fall in the hands of the chain of command lol not sure if it's a good think lol we know how the F&@$ S$&@ up lol!
It also ok for the Canadian para wing I don't really need to prove anything, I've been there done that!
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Offline BulletMagnet

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Well you wouldnt need to do the full basic Para anyway to get then, it would likely be a conversion jump quick ground school and the a hop and pop est voila Canadian Wings...

I would suggest when you get here and if you go CIC that you conact say the Jump school known as CFLAWC (Canadian Land Advanced Warfare Centre) and ask them about it, you may just need to provide a copy of your pers file showing your Jump related Quals.

Also check your personal messages there is another route for you possibly
"Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence" Cpl Jordan Anderson 1981-2007 RIP

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Offline Old Sweat

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There was a British exchange officer in the Land Staff circa 1993 who transferred to the CF. He continued to wear his British ribbons, but traded his SAS wings for the Canadian parachute badge with silver maple leaf.

Offline Brihard

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I can only speak to this anecdotally, but I've also worked with a couple of former Brit service members who've been allowed to wear whatever they had, with order of precedence falling behind everything Canadian. I would be surprised if wear of a full set of British medals were not authorized.
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Offline BulletMagnet

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OS,

Don't know about you but I tend not to argue with former members of the SAS.... I like my health and ability to walk lmao.

If he said he was wearing something who was going to stop him right  ;D
"Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence" Cpl Jordan Anderson 1981-2007 RIP

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Online Blackadder1916

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If your interest in doing the Canadian course is more about getting Canadian wings, then it might not be necessary.

CFAO 55-10 applies http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/cfa-oaf/055-10-eng.asp
Quote
SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES -- GENERAL

17. A CF specialist skill badge may be awarded to a CF member of the Regular or Reserve Force after successful completion of formal CF training or a CF qualifying course for parachutists, submariners, clearance divers, ship divers, combat divers, or explosive ordonance disposal (EOD) members.

18. Members who have received military training or courses from other countries for which the requirements are deemed to be equivalent to CF training requirements may be authorized to wear the applicable CF specialist skill badge subject to approval by NDHQ/DGRET.

PARACHUTE BADGE

19. A CF parachute badge may be awarded to a member of the Regular or Reserve Force after successful completion of formal CF training or a CF qualifying course for parachutists.

20. Members who have received military training or courses from other countries for which the requirements are deemed to be equivalent may be authorized to wear the CF parachute badge subject to approval by NDHQ/DLO (Director Land Operations).
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Offline SFSG

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Cheers guys really help full!
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Offline Mike63

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When I was posted in North Bay (96-03), there was an Ex-Brit that served in Ireland and he was allowed to wear his ribbons/medals.
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Offline BillN

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Never had a problem wearing my Brit medals after I switched over in 1981, including my GSM for NI.

But I did have to ask formal permission in writing from some office in NDHQ (can't remember which), and along with permission to wear my medals, permission was also granted to wear Canadian jump wings as I held Brit wings.

Somebody will know who you should ask permission from.

Offline BulletMagnet

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Moral of the story is come over get the job you want then ask questions of your CoC and do some research on the DIN and such from there you will probably be good to go for just about anything you need.

Glad we all could help
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Offline Towards_the_gap

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When did you get out? How long have you lived in Canada? What herrick/telic tours did you do?

Offline Pusser

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Never had a problem wearing my Brit medals after I switched over in 1981, including my GSM for NI.

But I did have to ask formal permission in writing from some office in NDHQ (can't remember which), and along with permission to wear my medals, permission was also granted to wear Canadian jump wings as I held Brit wings.

Somebody will know who you should ask permission from.

This is the correct answer.  That is, you have to ask permission and it is highly likely that you will be allowed to wear all medals earned while in the British Army (even for UN/NATO missions in which Canada is/was not a participant).  I've known a number of Canadians with service in the UK who wear their GSM with NI bar.  Your request has to go through the Chain of Command to the Director of Honours and Recognition (DH&R), who in turn will forward it to the Chancellery of Honours at Rideau Hall.  It can take a little while, but it will likely all be approved in due course.

I'm not absolutely sure on the para wings, but my best recollection of the policy is that if you have successfully completed a course that is deemed equivalent to the Canadian course, then you are entitled to wear the Canadian badge.  Only under very special circumstances would you be allowed to wear a foreign badge in Canada (one criteria being that the CF has no equivalent badge, which is not the case here).  This does not, however, prevent a lot of people wearing foreign badges on their mess kits.

As an aside, any service with the British Army (or any of Her Majesty's Forces around the globe) that has not been recognized with another long service medal (in this case the British Army LS&GC) can be used toward award of the Canadian Forces Decoration (CD), provided that the last five years are served with the CF.  For example, if you did seven years with the British Army (i.e. no entitlement to LS&GC yet) and then joined the CF, you could be awarded the CD after five years in the CF (provided you meet all the other criteria).   However, if you did 15 years in the British Army and did receive the LS&GC, then you would have to serve 12 years in the CF to get the CD.  If you did 20 years in the British Army and received the LS&GC, then you would have to do seven years in the CF to receive the CD.  In another example, British Army officers (who are not normally eligible for long service medals) with 17 years service in the UK may be awarded a CD and bar all at once after five years in the CF (i.e. for 22 years total service to Her Majesty).
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Offline MCG

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So basically I can were my NATO Afghanistan medal and my Afghanistan op herrick service medal ...
Having recently seen the a decision letter from DHH on this topic - as UK sees their medal as the official (for lack of better word) recognition, you would not be authorized to wear the NATO medal from the same service that the UK medal recognizes. 

Offline Pusser

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Having recently seen the a decision letter from DHH on this topic - as UK sees their medal as the official (for lack of better word) recognition, you would not be authorized to wear the NATO medal from the same service that the UK medal recognizes.

We have similar rules.  If Canada issues a medal to recognize a period of service, then the UN/NATO/other medal for the same service is not inducted into the Canadian Honours System (and thus, cannot be worn with Canadian Honours or on CF uniform).  In short, Canada does not permit dual recognition of the same service.  For the most part, this does preclude someone from accepting the second medal and hanging it on their wall.  They just can't mount and wear it with their Canadian medals on their uniform.  However, if they are recognizing two different periods of service (and I don't know the specifics here), then it may be possible to wear both.  If both were authorized to be worn in the UK, it is possible that both would be authorized here.

The Director of History and Heritage (DHH) has nothing to do with this.  The request goes through the Director of Honours and Recognition (DH&R), but the actual decision comes from the Chancellery/Governor General.

When considering foreign awards to be worn with Canadian Honours, two (of several) key questions are:

1)  From where does it emanate?  Her Majesty is the fount of all Canadian Honours, so no foreign award will be approved unless it is awarded by a Head of State (e.g. a medal from the US Secretary of the Navy would not be approved); and

2)  Would the award constitute dual recognition (i.e. is the individual in receipt of or eligible for a Canadian Honour for the same service)?
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Offline formercadet1029

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Wow, this is a nutty topic. Just wear them all together on a blue blazer or something, not much anyone can do about that.