Author Topic: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's  (Read 88223 times)

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2014, 18:51:46 »
How is it that Australia can buy 4 C17 with full life cycle cost of 1.6billion AD and we can buy 1 for 1.5Billion CAD?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 19:40:04 by whiskey601 »
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2014, 19:08:48 »
How is it that Australia can but 4 C17 with full life cycle cost of 1.6billion AD and we can buy 1 for 1.5Billion CAD?
Different accounting standards.
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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2014, 19:15:32 »
Good decision ... let's hope there's room for a 6th C-17 in FY 15/16, and that there's still a "white tail" left.

Last numbers I saw were that there were 2 left, assuming Australia takes its 9th and 10th planes.  RAAF Base Amberley's parking is pretty limited already, so it'll be interesting to see where they slot them in.
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Offline bradley247

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2014, 19:22:15 »
How is it that Australia can but 4 C17 with full life cycle cost of 1.6billion AD and we can buy 1 for 1.5Billion CAD?

The announced price is $415 million including life cycle costs. That's about on par with what the Austrlaians paid.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ottawa-to-buy-5th-c-17-aircraft-1.2155642

Offline HB_Pencil

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2014, 02:27:45 »
From the announcement of the decision to buy a fifth C-17, it was noted that this would extend the fleet life by 7.5 years.  A little math will show  that this implies an expected life of 37.5 years per aircraft(in a fleet of 5 assuming constant utilization rate). A sixth aircraft would extend this to 45 years per aircraft(using constant utilization rate)----this is much more in line with how the CAF/RCAF
has used its initial Hercules fleet.   For an expected readiness  of at least 90% for 5 aircraft,  a seventh aircraft would be  highly recommended.

Bearpaw

It probably won't add that much life at all. As I mentioned earlier, the demand far outstrips airlift capacity: there just is too many demands on the fleet for even five aircraft to meet: only at six might the load start to slacken for the fleet. This typical breakdown for the fleet state at any one time:

one for heavy maintenence
one for training
one in "reserve"
one on operations.

So Canada only has one aircraft available to do actual operations. The reserve aircraft is for emergencies and backup for the operational aircraft. A fifth and sixth aircraft really adds greater capacity upfront to the fleet because they will immediately go to operations.


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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2014, 15:07:31 »
It's actually 3 since you can pull the "reserve" aircraft and the "training" aircraft into operation

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2014, 19:34:43 »
This typical breakdown for the fleet state at any one time:

one for heavy maintenence
one for training
one in "reserve"
one on operations.
So Canada only has one aircraft available to do actual operations.

Not quite...Without getting too much into specifics, there is no such aircraft allocation, and it's not uncommon for the majority of the fleet to be operationally employed on any given day (YFR permitting).

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2014, 19:42:04 »
I don't think HB_Pencil says there are actual "training" and "reserve" assignment, but rather saying that in general, this is the breakdown of missions for the aircraft at any given time.  Obviously subject to change with the operationnal tempo...

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2014, 19:54:27 »
I don't think HB_Pencil says there are actual "training" and "reserve" assignment, but rather saying that in general, this is the breakdown of missions for the aircraft at any given time.  Obviously subject to change with the operationnal tempo...

Yes, what you are talking about is called 'lines of tasking', and without posting specifics, more than one is dedicated to operational missions.

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2014, 20:58:29 »
Not quite...Without getting too much into specifics, there is no such aircraft allocation, and it's not uncommon for the majority of the fleet to be operationally employed on any given day (YFR permitting).

With nothing mentioned in the press about increases to YFR, adding a fifth tail with no increase in YFR will make them all last longer.

(Besides, significant increases to YFR would probably require increases to the number of crews, and I've seen nothing to suggest that)
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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2015, 15:42:25 »
it is done http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/news-template-standard.page?doc=canada-s-fifth-cc-177-globemaster-iii-touches-down-at-8-wing-trenton%2Fi7kv5fuv


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Canada’s fifth CC-177 Globemaster III touches down at 8 Wing Trenton
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    Defence Minister Jason Kenney (second from left) joined Lieutenant-General Yvan Blondin, commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force, to witness the inaugural landing of the RCAF’s fifth CC-177 Globemaster III in Canada.

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    CC-177 Globemaster III
    Operation Impact
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News Article / March 30, 2015

From the Department of National Defence

Government welcomes increased air power for the Royal Canadian Air Force.

The Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) today accepted delivery of its fifth CC-177 Globemaster III aircraft, increasing its flexibility to respond to both domestic and international emergencies and support a variety of missions, including humanitarian assistance, peace support and combat.

Defence Minister Jason Kenney joined Lieutenant-General Yvan Blondin, commander of the RCAF, to witness the aircraft’s inaugural landing in Canada. The aircraft, tail number 705, augments the current fleet of four CC-177 Globemaster IIIs operated by 429 Transport Squadron at 8 Wing Trenton, Ontario.

"Our five CC-177 Globemasters give Canada a huge advantage in projecting our presence around the world,” said Defence Minister Kenney. “In the past, Canada was completely dependent on other countries for strategic airlift capability. Now we can move personnel and equipment around the globe in short order. This is essential for our ability to respond quickly to urgent military and humanitarian missions.”

The additional Globemaster will extend the life expectancy of the entire fleet by about seven and a half years. Moreover, with the purchase of an additional aircraft, the RCAF is projected to have at least three Globemasters available more than 90 per cent of the time to respond to concurrent international or domestic crises. This represents an increase of approximately 25 per cent.

The current Globemaster fleet has been playing an integral role in ferrying supplies and troops to establish and resupply the Canadian camp in Kuwait during Operation Impact. It has also delivered essential materiel to CF-188 Hornet crews deployed in support of NATO as part of Operation Reassurance and the international response to the Putin regime’s aggression against Ukraine.

The Globemasters are also used to support domestic operations, including more than 75 missions to Canada’s North to deliver 1.5 million litres of fuel, seven million pounds of equipment and 3,120 personnel to locations such as Alert, Iqaluit and Resolute Bay in Nunavut.

“We’ve chalked up enormous successes with our first four Globemasters,” said Lieutenant-General Blondin. “With the arrival of our new Globemaster, we will be more agile, more flexible, and better able to respond when the Government of Canada calls on the RCAF.”

Using resources the Government had previously set aside for National Defence to implement the Canada First Defence Strategy, the acquisition project cost is estimated at $415 million, including the cost to purchase the aircraft, spare engine, ancillary equipment, specialized systems, project costs and contingency for exchange rate fluctuation. The cost for 12 years of integrated in-service support for the additional aircraft is estimated at $30 million.


Meanwhile back in France (aren't you glad we aren't in that mess!) http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/161581/partner-nations-may-apply-penalty-clauses-to-a400m-program.html

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2015, 10:07:30 »
And here it is ...



... tail no. 177705.

(I would be very glad to see 177706, 707 and 708, too, bit I don't know how many whitetails might be left.)
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as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2015, 11:51:40 »
(I would be very glad to see 177706, 707 and 708, too, bit I don't know how many whitetails might be left.)

They had 15 when the line closed according to Janes. http://www.janes.com/article/36491/boeing-brings-forward-c-17-line-closure

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2015, 18:45:43 »
They had 15 when the line closed according to Janes. http://www.janes.com/article/36491/boeing-brings-forward-c-17-line-closure

How many of those are slated for Australia though?  RUMINT is that they're looking for 2, possibly 4 more to bring total to 10. 
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2015, 22:21:04 »
Its an older article from last year, but that would add up to about 10 airframes left if none were spoken for by anyone else. I don't think 177706 would be hard to obtain, we just need to find the funds to get it.

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2015, 22:26:12 »
Its an older article from last year, but that would add up to about 10 airframes left if none were spoken for by anyone else. I don't think 177706 would be hard to obtain, we just need to find the funds to get it.

And crews to man it. And funds to pay for increased YFR, and related increased maintenance.

Last I heard there were significantly less than 10 tails unclaimed; from what I recall a few months ago, you could count them on one hand (with fingers left over).
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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2015, 22:59:29 »
Given that the first batch needs to be turned in for contract maintenance every five years or so (putting most of the fleet out of action at once), buying a few extra ones and putting them in long term storage *might* be an option. Everytime one of the C-17's has to go in for maintenance, pull the tarp off one of the ones ion storage and carry on....
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2015, 23:02:47 »
Given that the first batch needs to be turned in for contract maintenance every five years or so (putting most of the fleet out of action at once), buying a few extra ones and putting them in long term storage *might* be an option. Everytime one of the C-17's has to go in for maintenance, pull the tarp off one of the ones ion storage and carry on....

The RCAF is better at fleet management than that.
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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2015, 23:32:09 »
Given that the first batch needs to be turned in for contract maintenance every five years or so (putting most of the fleet out of action at once), buying a few extra ones and putting them in long term storage *might* be an option. Everytime one of the C-17's has to go in for maintenance, pull the tarp off one of the ones ion storage and carry on....

So park a few +$200 million assets because we can't figure out how to stagger a couple months long maintenance check? (Which is staggered anyways since we didn't get all 4 at once). Even the RCAF isn't that incompetent...

The remaining white tails are being snatched up pretty quickly (and not very publicly), it's bascally now or never.

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2015, 23:51:32 »
Quote
So park a few +$200 million assets because we can't figure out how to stagger a couple months long maintenance check? (Which is staggered anyways since we didn't get all 4 at once). Even the RCAF isn't that incompetent...

I'm trying to find the link, but that is precisely the reason that was cited for buying more C-17s for the RCAF
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2015, 10:02:39 »
buying an extra one and placing it in long term storage down in Nevada might be a wise idea, allows you to pull it fly it as one goes down or heaven forbid one crashes. Which leads me to another question, since this is a military, do they actually plan a loss percentage into their buys from enemy action, accidents and still be able to operate?

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2015, 10:12:55 »
We don't have war stock on aircraft. I don't believe we ever have. So many parts Tx after a fairly short timeframe it doesn't make any sense to put them in longterm storage, like trucks, tanks, and APCs. It would take almost as long to bring up an aircraft from storage as it would for a maintenance check on the one its supposed to replace.

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2015, 13:37:04 »
Would like to see 1 or 2 more C17's for CAF.

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2015, 17:35:24 »
Not sure how long it takes to do big maintenance on a CC-177, but it took the USAF 70 days to resurrect a B-52 that was in storage at the Boneyard. They're also pros at doing this type of work, where we'd be very new.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/21/us/arizona-b-52-restored/

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Re: RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2015, 01:25:36 »
It's every five years and lasts a few months. It would be absolutely ludicrous to buy and then mothball a perfectly good jet, only to spend potentially tens of millions to bring it back into service to prevent a slight decrease in capability a small fraction of the time...I can't stress how idiotic it would be for Canada to even consider doing it.

More airframes would allow the heavy workload to be spread among a larger fleet, extending the life of the aircraft.