Author Topic: Current Flag Officers  (Read 17792 times)

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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2016, 08:51:21 »
The real problem, which LogOffr has pointed out, is the CAF has adopted the same C2 structure that the civil service uses.  Is it appropriate?  Probably not but we're stuck with it and I don't see a way to change it.  It's what you get from nearly 60 years of peace time bloat with some small skirmishes in the 90's and a brushfire war in the 2000's, in the grand scheme of things, nothing of any real consequence that would force the department to change its bad habits.

The government was able to get through Afghanistan by simply throwing money at the problem, the institution carried on as if it was business as usual.  It's going to take something real big to make this zebra change its stripes.

Online Old Sweat

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2016, 09:14:34 »
The real problem, which LogOffr has pointed out, is the CAF has adopted the same C2 structure that the civil service uses.  Is it appropriate?  Probably not but we're stuck with it and I don't see a way to change it.  It's what you get from nearly 60 years of peace time bloat with some small skirmishes in the 90's and a brushfire war in the 2000's, in the grand scheme of things, nothing of any real consequence that would force the department to change its bad habits.

The government was able to get through Afghanistan by simply throwing money at the problem, the institution carried on as if it was business as usual.  It's going to take something real big to make this zebra change its stripes.
Back in 1990-1991 Gulf 1 and Oka had a fairly significant effect on a portion of NDHQ. What had been a fairly "leisurely" approach to operations suddenly became much more business-like for the portion of the staff from all the disciplines charged with the conduct of operations, logistics et al at home and abroad in support of both operations. In J3 the plans directorate actually did no operational planning before the event, but this changed very dramatically as the operational planning function moved from within the NDOC to J3 Plans under the pressure of events.

However, for most of NDHQ it was business as usual except for enhanced security at the entrances of 101 Colonel By Drive and the odd bomb scare.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2016, 09:45:39 »
Back in 1990-1991 Gulf 1 and Oka had a fairly significant effect on a portion of NDHQ. What had been a fairly "leisurely" approach to operations suddenly became much more business-like for the portion of the staff from all the disciplines charged with the conduct of operations, logistics et al at home and abroad in support of both operations. In J3 the plans directorate actually did no operational planning before the event, but this changed very dramatically as the operational planning function moved from within the NDOC to J3 Plans under the pressure of events.

However, for most of NDHQ it was business as usual except for enhanced security at the entrances of 101 Colonel By Drive and the odd bomb scare.

This is my point, at the CAF level, i.e. CJOC and below, everyone is fairly operationally focused; however, this doesn't transcend to the different ADM's and other Level 0's within DND.  Even in the CAF though, you've got this weird mix of operations and staff.  The only true Commanders in the military are CDS, CJOC Comd, CANSOFCOM Comd, CFINTGp Comd (I guess :)) and following that you've got Brigade Commanders, Wing Commanders, Fleet Commanders.  Everyone else is just staff, even though they call themselves Commanders :)

The Army is the worst of the offenders with the Air Force not far behind.  From what I've seen, the Navy does it best.  It's too bad they've been allowed to rust out, otherwise though, their structure makes the most sense out of any of the services.  SOFCOM ain't too shabby either and we should consider them their own service. 

Offline Lumber

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2016, 09:46:55 »
The government was able to get through Afghanistan by simply throwing money at the problem, the institution carried on as if it was business as usual.  It's going to take something real big to make this zebra change its stripes.

Market corrections help to remove some of the froth and speculation, but they are still unpleasant to experience. The longer between corrections, and the large the amount of froth, the more painful he correction will be.

Now, this analogy might not actually work with the military, but I can't imagine what we would actually need in order to instigate a "market correction" in the bloat of DND. I don't think a major war would do it; that might even make it worse  once the war was over. Perhaps a massive budget slash? Didn't LGen (ret) Leslie try and do just this?
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2016, 10:12:11 »
Does anyone know how many Flag Officers the RCN has active at this time?

I'll answer your question.  8 (7 Reg and 1 PRes).

Comd RCN (VAdm).  DComd RCN (RAdm).  Comd MARFORLANT (RAdm).  Comd MARFORPAC (RAdm).  Comd CANFLTLANT (Cmdre).  Comd CANFLTPAC (Cmdre).  DG Naval Strat Readiness (Cmdre).  DG Naval Force Development (Cmdre).  Comd NAVRES (Cmdre).

There are more flag officers out there in other L1s, but those are the ones in the RCN.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Log Offr

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2016, 23:25:59 »
Very few are in leadership roles. Most Flags are doing institutional functions that need to be done regardless of the size of the force, or that Government requires of its Departments in one way or another. And, depth in the gene pool.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 13:24:44 by Log Offr »

Offline gwp

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2016, 15:14:03 »
Very few are in leadership roles. Most Flags are doing institutional functions that need to be done regardless of the size of the force, or that Government requires of its Departments in one way or another. And, depth in the gene pool.

Some of those "institutional functions" are diplomatic such as Canadian Defence Liaison in Washington DC and at SHAPE.  These officers need to be of similar rank as allied appointees. 

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2016, 19:44:01 »
Ah yes. All the other kids are doing it - a justification that we'd never let our kids get away with, but is perfectly rational when the CAF says the same thing.

Perhaps if we want to sit at the grownup table we should be willing to pay our own way; build more sustainable capability instead of more HQs.   We have more LCols today than 25 years ago - despite having 20000 fewer Reg F members.
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Offline gwp

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2016, 12:09:28 »
Perhaps if we want to sit at the grownup table we should be willing to pay our own way; build more sustainable capability instead of more HQs.   We have more LCols today than 25 years ago - despite having 20000 fewer Reg F members.
In addition to being "at the table" they are runnng the show as is the case with the CAF General at NORAD.  It was an RCN Capt that led the watch on 9/11 and cleared the skies over North America. 

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2016, 12:28:09 »
In addition to being "at the table" they are runnng the show as is the case with the CAF General at NORAD. 
I sure hope that USAF Gen. ('4-star') Robinson -- Commander, NORAD -- gets the memo, along with the American LGen and MGen in NORAD HQ, that the Canadian '3-star' is actually "running the show."

Offline gwp

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2016, 18:31:22 »
I sure hope that USAF Gen. ('4-star') Robinson -- Commander, NORAD -- gets the memo, along with the American LGen and MGen in NORAD HQ, that the Canadian '3-star' is actually "running the show."
He was on 9/11

https://www.archives.gov/declassification/iscap/pdf/2012-042-doc27.pdf

NORAD is a partnership.  The chain of command recognized the equality and capability of all team members.

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/vancouver-island-man-played-key-role-at-norad-defence-centre-amid-sept-11-turmoil-1.619894

It was a fluke that a Canadian was the command director on duty that morning. Four out of five shifts that week were manned by Americans. Jellinek was about a year into his three-year term at Norad after retiring from the navy.

“We were just doing our jobs,” said Jellinek, 63. In 2003, Jellinek was awarded the meritorious service medal by the governor general for his work initiating the response to the attacks.

He arrived early for a 5:30 a.m. briefing on the day’s events: Russian bomber training in the Arctic and a fully manned Norad exercise — which came in handy later.

Then the command centre got a call, alerting them the U.S. national transport agency was tracking a hijacked plane.

“Before 9/11, the old-fashioned procedure was to get on an aircraft’s tail and watch it, then see what the hijackers wanted,” Jellinek said. The military became involved by request.

Command centre crew were watching CNN live video of smoke coming from the north tower of the World Trade Center in New York, wondering what was happening. Then they saw the second plane hit, he said.

In a very short time, four planes had been hijacked, one crashed into the Pentagon and another was in the air.

In the frantic hours that followed, Canadians and Americans worked together swiftly. Jellinek played a key role in two major decisions: all U.S. air traffic was shut down within the hour, and international flights were quickly diverted to Canadian towns and cities.

- See more at: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/vancouver-island-man-played-key-role-at-norad-defence-centre-amid-sept-11-turmoil-1.619894#sthash.MludjOGg.dpuf
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 18:41:34 by gwp »

Offline devil39

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Re: Current Flag Officers
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2016, 22:25:42 »
I sure hope that USAF Gen. ('4-star') Robinson -- Commander, NORAD -- gets the memo, along with the American LGen and MGen in NORAD HQ, that the Canadian '3-star' is actually "running the show."

She is seriously unimpressive having sat through many VTCs with her on ARDENT SENTRY 16......among the least impressive 3 or 4 star Generals i have observed..... and i'm not being a misogynist....just being honest