Author Topic: Saudi Arabia expels Canadian ambassador for urging release of activists  (Read 31558 times)

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Offline MilEME09

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Re: 9/11 imagery.

Brought to you by the country from which one of the most powerful family's malcontent sons masterminded thousand of deaths... (the same day that that family's jet was allowed to depart home to KSA through closed airspace...)

Perhaps there should also be a re-assessment of the LAV business as well?

All that said, on the Diplomatic front, if we as a Nation are so aghast collectively at how other Nations close to us (*cough, USA*) message by Twitter, then perhaps we need to look at our own house and check for hypocrisy?  Diplomatic issues should be dealt with by living, breathing diplomats, IMO.

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The Saudi's have the funds they really wouldn't care too much and just take their business else where, cancelling the contract though. blocking the export permit would hurt GDLS more, unless say we just took over the contract and bought all those LAV's GD jobs stay, the army would Semi loose though cause we would get a bunch of vehicles we wouldn't have room for, or have a use or role for.
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Offline Altair

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Didn’t you just comment up thread the less ties to the KSA the better??  That is just one among many good reasons for that pipe.
Canada imports about 85 000 barrels of oil from the KSA per day.

The energy east pipeline had the capacity of 1.1 million barrels a day.

The Energy east pipeline was meant to  displace a lot more than the small amount of oil we import from Saudi Arabia.

Heck, even with the line 9b pipeline currently in place, Quebec imports more oil from Alberta right now than saudi arabia, 300 000 barrels to 85 thousand.

Saudi Arabia is largely irrelevant to Canada, which is I was saying energy east being aimed at displacing Saudi oil was missing the bigger picture.

That all said, I fully supported energy east and moving Canadian oil from west to east, but Saudi Arabia has little to nothing to do with that.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Now that we seem to be in the business of holding various middle eastern countries to account for their actions against women, let's make sure Iran gets "twittered" by GAC.

You know, Iran- the country that tortured and killed an actual Canadian Citizen (female journalist Zahra Kahzemi); that the previous government broke off diplomatic relations with but this government re-established as nearly its first act.

Or do only some women count?

I am no friend of the Saudis. I think they are responsible for the lions share of the misery in the Middle East, but they actually seem to be trending in the right direction under MbS.

I am not sure how having the Saudis, Bahrainis and the Emirates angry at us, but the Iranians looking on in amusement is "good".

Offline Colin P

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China,  for all of their glaring faults,  are not exporting extremist wahhabism ideology that is a key driver of making young Muslim men want to blow themselves up for their god.

China is however using force, money and threats to run roughshod over the entire SE Asia and is busy undermining democracy here by using economic threats against any organization that is critical of it. So the threat is real, just different and they deserves heaps of criticism, just on the pollution issues alone, much less the threats to human rights. But since I suspect PowerCorp is kissing the Mandarin's feet, I also expect them to remain mostly silent on that file. 

Offline CloudCover

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The GDLS project work will be moved to a production facility if need be. But London has 3 or 4 Liberal ridings so I can't imagine Trudeau initiating what would amount to a closure of the plant. 
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Offline Altair

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China is however using force, money and threats to run roughshod over the entire SE Asia and is busy undermining democracy here by using economic threats against any organization that is critical of it. So the threat is real, just different and they deserves heaps of criticism, just on the pollution issues alone, much less the threats to human rights. But since I suspect PowerCorp is kissing the Mandarin's feet, I also expect them to remain mostly silent on that file.
Common tactics used by Nation states around the world, from European countries to America, that largely don't warp the minds of those living in other countries.

Those radicalized young westerners joining ISIL or radicalized citizens of Muslim countries that are acting as a destabilizing force for those countries, and deadly to western troops stationed there can trace their warped ideology to the  extremely conservative form of Wahhabism being preached in their mosques and taught in their madrasses, and those around the world. This is the country that supplied 15 of the 19 september 11th attackers, sent more suicide bombers to Iraq than any other country https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article24467953.html , and has sent more fighters to ISIL than any other country except Tunisia. https://www.gistrat.com/project/the-data-on-foreign-fighters-and-isis/

China isn't causing Canadians to shoot Canadian soldiers at the war memorial and storm parliament hill, or run down soldiers with their cars, or shoot up nightclubs in the USA, or kill hundreds of people in France. That can be traced back to Saudi Arabia.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Altair,

Presumably, the Government will get right on expelling all the Wahabbi clerics from Canada and freezing Saudi funding of Canadian Mosques....

Offline Altair

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Altair,

Presumably, the Government will get right on expelling all the Wahabbi clerics from Canada and freezing Saudi funding of Canadian Mosques....
Sure,  but in the age where people are getting radicalized online,  that seems rather quaint.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Now that we seem to be in the business of holding various middle eastern countries to account for their actions against women, let's make sure Iran gets "twittered" by GAC.

And, while we're at it, every staunchly Catholic country .... or Province :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Colin P

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Sure,  but in the age where people are getting radicalized online,  that seems rather quaint.

If you follow radicalization, the mosques act as catalysts either knowingly or unknowingly, the knowingly bit is through Friday sermons and private meetings and the unknowingly bit is as a congregation/commnication place for the radicals to sniff out new recruits.   

Offline Xylric

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Sad reality is, those nations which adhere to something like Star Trek's Prime Directive are going to inevitably become the victims of those that do not (Interference in elections and politics is ridiculously common throughout history, after all).

Ergo, the solution is to emulate the Klingon or Romulan Empires.  :coffee:

In all seriousness, though, I see these events as proof that human behavior honestly hasn't changed that much since the Bronze Age, and that the appropriate response is quite simple. Escalating the matter is not going to end beneficially for any of the parties involved, therefore the appropriate solution is to do nothing (or at least, nothing visible). How many of the Saudi students attending university in Canada, after having been exposed to our way of life, actually want to be relocated? This sort of thing may well backfire.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Quote
“We need to use our diplomatic and more traditional intelligence assets to bring pressure on the governments of Qatar and Saudi Arabia, which are providing clandestine financial and logistic support to Isis and other radical groups in the region .”

-US State Department memo, dated 17 August 2014,
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Offline YZT580

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Sure,  but in the age where people are getting radicalized online,  that seems rather quaint.
It might be quaint but it at least draws a line in the sand so to speak.  The graphics are good

Offline CloudCover

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What's the significance of recalling the two Imams from the mosques in Canada for "consultation and direction". Sounds to me like two people who ought not be allowed back into our country. And, they can take their obnoxious, rich, entitled students and stick them someplace else. Nobody's really going to miss them.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Anyone else find it hilarious that the Liberals demonized the Tories for taking a principled stand against dictators and human rights abusers at the UN instead of courting their vote for a UNSC seat, but now want praise for taking a principled stand against a human rights abuser?

That being said, Freeland completely blew off all normal diplomacy and went right into Twitter-rant mode, a-la Donald Trump, instead of using proper diplomatic channels to lodge complaints and voice displeasure? The KSA's over the top reaction is because of the over the top nature of her comments.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Anyone else find it hilarious that the Liberals demonized the Tories for taking a principled stand against dictators and human rights abusers at the UN instead of courting their vote for a UNSC seat, but now want praise for taking a principled stand against a human rights abuser?

That being said, Freeland completely blew off all normal diplomacy and went right into Twitter-rant mode, a-la Donald Trump, instead of using proper diplomatic channels to lodge complaints and voice displeasure? The KSA's over the top reaction is because of the over the top nature of her comments.


In fairness, it was not Minster Freeland's 'tweet' that caused the offence; it was what (I thought) was a pretty 'normal' tweet from Global Affairs that upset the Crown Prince. The problem isn't what Canada said or didn't say: we, Canada, are juts a convenient (low value) target for the Saudis to send a message to their region and to the West.

The Trump led West will get the message ...   
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as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Anyone else find it hilarious that the Liberals demonized the Tories for taking a principled stand against dictators and human rights abusers at the UN instead of courting their vote for a UNSC seat, but now want praise for taking a principled stand against a human rights abuser?

I don't actually recall that happening.  Do you have a link that speaks to this assertion?

Quote
That being said, Freeland completely blew off all normal diplomacy and went right into Twitter-rant mode, a-la Donald Trump, instead of using proper diplomatic channels to lodge complaints and voice displeasure? The KSA's over the top reaction is because of the over the top nature of her comments.

Pretty sure that is completely mis-characterising what actually happened.  That was hardly a "twitter rant", and it was certainly not posted by Ms Freeland.
"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

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Offline PuckChaser

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Pretty sure that is completely mis-characterising what actually happened.  That was hardly a "twitter rant", and it was certainly not posted by Ms Freeland.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-07/canada-and-saudi-arabia-spar-on-twitter-and-no-one-will-win

You don't conduct diplomacy over Twitter. It makes good one-liners and screenshots for campaign ads, but doesn't show well when you get your Ambassador booted. Raif and Samar Badawi aren't even Canadian citizens. She was told a year ago by the Saudi Ambassador to stop bringing up Raif Badawi, but maybe figured they were bluffing? Much like Trump's one-shot tweets, Freeland was making a statement for domestic political consumption and to drum up support for the Liberal party base.

I don't actually recall that happening.  Do you have a link that speaks to this assertion?

Yep, this nice little soundbite hasn't aged well, particularly the end about using a megaphone to talk to countries instead of working with them... https://globalnews.ca/video/2246680/justin-trudeau-criticizes-harper-government-for-losing-seat-at-un-security-council
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 19:58:52 by PuckChaser »

Offline PPCLI Guy

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https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-07/canada-and-saudi-arabia-spar-on-twitter-and-no-one-will-win

You don't conduct diplomacy over Twitter. It makes good one-liners and screenshots for campaign ads, but doesn't show well when you get your Ambassador booted. Raif and Samar Badawi aren't even Canadian citizens. She was told a year ago by the Saudi Ambassador to stop bringing up Raif Badawi, but maybe figured they were bluffing? Much like Trump's one-shot tweets, Freeland was making a statement for domestic political consumption and to drum up support for the Liberal party base.

Ok - I don't concur with your conclusion about "the liberal base" - mostly because there isn't really such a thing in middle of the road Canada...



 
Quote
Yep, this nice little soundbite hasn't aged well, particularly the end about using a megaphone to talk to countries instead of working with them... https://globalnews.ca/video/2246680/justin-trudeau-criticizes-harper-government-for-losing-seat-at-un-security-council

Hmm.  This seems to be about the UNSC seat, vice "taking a principled stand against dictators and human rights abusers at the UN", but thank you for taking the time to find the link.

If you had quoted this:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/worldview/harper-wades-into-chinese-human-rights---but-whos-listening/article545221/

or even this:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-raises-human-rights-concerns-with-chinese-president-xi-jinping-1.2829146

it might have made your point about the Harper Government (tm) "standing up to human rights abusers", but of course that would point out that both of our last two PM's actually voiced Canadian values, rather pointedly, to other countries.

As to Opposition responses to the latest imboglio, I give you this:

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/dzsurdzsa-conservatives-respond-to-saudi-arabia-trade-dispute/

Ie, nothing from the leader of the PCs.  Not for.  Not against.  Just silence.

"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

Karl von Clausewitz

Offline PuckChaser

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Ie, nothing from the leader of the PCs.  Not for.  Not against.  Just silence.

This is probably the only opposition party (that was not in a minority government situation) where people fact checked/cared what they said about the governing party. Currently, the opposition responses are analyzed far more than the Government's actual actions.

You also completely missed the point Trudeau had in his sound bite. Under the Harper Tories, Canada picked sides (specifically for UNSC it was in support of Israel) and was a vocal opponent of the way the UN appoints despots and dictators to membership in committees like the UNHRC (Here's their membership https://www.ohchr.org/en/hrbodies/hrc/pages/currentmembers.aspx). That's the megaphone Trudeau was talking about. Now, when the Trudeau Liberals take up that exact same megaphone, they're not taken to task.

I didn't know I had to approve of both the content of Freeland's twitter post, and how she went about conducting international diplomacy over twitter.  :rofl:
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 21:46:07 by PuckChaser »

Offline daftandbarmy

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Waiting for the Trudeau government to lay the hammer down on Japan now  ::)


Tokyo medical school admits changing results to exclude women


The investigation found that in this year’s entrance exams the school reduced all applicants’ first-stage test scores by 20% and then added at least 20 points for male applicants, except those who had previously failed the test at least four times. It said similar manipulations had occurred for years because the school wanted fewer female doctors since it anticipated they would shorten or halt their careers after becoming mothers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/08/tokyo-medical-school-admits-changing-results-to-exclude-women

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Offline Larry Strong

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Interesting article.....

https://edmontonsun.com/news/local-news/corbella-trudeau-and-freeland-should-leave-governing-by-tweet-to-trump/wcm/db72048f-05b3-48e4-b403-071a2db726ae

Quote
David Chatterson, Canada’s former ambassador to Saudi Arabia, said the purpose of any country’s foreign policy is to advance its own interests.

“When I heard about the tweet, my question was, well, what’s our objective here?” asked Chatterson.

“Was it to mitigate the circumstances of Badawi? In which case we failed,” he said to CBC News.

“Was it to inform the broader direction of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia?” he asked rhetorically. “Again, I don’t think we’ve done that. Have we advanced Canada’s interests? Definitely not.”

Cheers
Larry
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Offline Colin P

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I don't actually recall that happening.  Do you have a link that speaks to this assertion?

Pretty sure that is completely mis-characterising what actually happened.  That was hardly a "twitter rant", and it was certainly not posted by Ms Freeland.

Just a sample

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/canada+must+serious+about+relationship+with+china+transition+document/11407131/story.html

Offline daftandbarmy

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If we can't even win a Twitter fight with a 3rd World Country.....  :facepalm:

Canada Learns That No One Wins a Twitter Fight

In an age when foreign policy is conducted increasingly by social media, Saudi Arabia’s reaction to a pair of Canadian tweets is a reminder that diplomacy by Twitter comes with a few risks.

The tweets, from Canadian Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland and via her ministry’s main Twitter account, expressed concern over the latest arrests of social activists in Riyadh. In response, Saudi Arabia suspended diplomatic ties and new trade dealings with Canada, ordered the expulsion of Canada’s ambassador to Riyadh, and recalled its own envoy from Ottawa. The Saudi foreign ministry’s explanation for these measures is that the Canadian criticism was “an affront to the kingdom that requires a sharp response to prevent any party from attempting to meddle with Saudi sovereignty.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-07/canada-and-saudi-arabia-spar-on-twitter-and-no-one-will-win
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Offline Rifleman62

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All this does not help Freeland in her failed NAFTA negotiations with the US who apparently have a low opinion of her already as previously posted.

Bet foreign arms salespeople are hovering around now to make a deal with the Saudis. IMHO the workers in London should be worried. If the Saudis cancel the contract, I am sure a long, long court case will ensue, but production will slow/stop.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/saudi-arabia-stops-medical-treatment-programs-in-canada-and-aims-to-move-patients-from-hospitals

Saudi Arabia stops medical treatment programs in Canada, aiming to move patients from hospitals - 8 Aug 18
The kingdom has also suspended educational exchange programs with Canada while state airline Saudi said it was suspending flights to and from Toronto

https://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/saudi-arabia-sells-off-canadian-assets-as-dispute-escalates-ft

Saudi Arabia is disposing of Canadian assets ‘no matter the cost’, FT reports - 8 Aug 18
Saudi Central bank and state pension selling Canadian equities, bonds and cash holdings

And:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/saudi-arabia-canada-economic-impact-1.4777407

Saudi Arabia to sell off Canadian assets and stop buying Canadian wheat and barley - 8 Aug 18

Extract: Canada sold 66,000 tonnes of wheat to Saudi Arabia last year, and slightly more the year before that, Statistics Canada data shows. In the first five months of the year, Canada has yet to book any wheat sales this year. But Canada sold 66,000 tonnes of barley to Saudi Arabia in 2016, and twice that last year.  In 2015, Saudia Arabia-based Saudi Agricultural and Livestock Investment Company was part of a consortium that bought a controlling interest in the Canadian Wheat Board for $250 million.


https://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/spat-with-saudis-hits-home-for-ontario-plant-making-armoured-vehicles-for-regime?utm_campaign=magnet&utm_source=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles

Saudi Arabia spat with Canada hits home at armoured vehicle plant in Ontario with 2,000 jobs on the line
- 7 Aug 18
Fears grow a $15-billion contract at a London, Ont., plant to make armoured vehicles for Saudi Arabia may be at risk

Extract: The 14-year arms deal, which directly employs 2,000 people, was described at the time by the previous federal Conservative government as the largest advanced manufacturing export contract in Canadian history.


https://business.financialpost.com/commodities/why-it-wont-be-easy-for-quebec-and-atlantic-canadian-refineries-to-replace-saudi-oil

Why it won't be easy for Quebec and Atlantic Canadian refineries to replace Saudi oil
- & Aug 18
'We are in a world where 100,000 bpd is significant' — only a few producing countries, including Saudi Arabia, have spare capacity

Extract: Saudi Arabian oil imports in Canada have been steadily increasing for years. National Energy Board data show the kingdom shipped an average of 102,000 barrels of oil per day to Canada last year, which was also up 17 per cent from an average of close to 87,000 bpd in 2016. It has consistently been among the five largest sources of foreign oil for Eastern Canadian refineries in recent years and an important feedstock for refineries in Quebec, New Brunswick and Newfoundland. If the Saudi government’s threat includes oil market transactions with private-sector companies in Canada, the effects would be damaging for the country’s refining sector, ARC Energy Research Institute executive director Peter Tertzakian said. “We are in a world where 100,000 barrels per day is significant,” Tertzakian said, adding that oil markets are currently tight and only a few producing countries – including Saudi Arabia – have spare capacity. As a result, he said that Canadian refineries would be challenged to replace 100,000 bpd of oil supply without incurring significant additional costs.
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