Author Topic: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests  (Read 1738 times)

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Offline daftandbarmy

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How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« on: September 24, 2020, 13:50:18 »
California is not alone ... millions of misinformed, but well meaning, people around the globe are (ironically) responsible for policies that are destroying the forests:

How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
Short-sighted eco-measures helped cause the devastation we see today

The environmentalists have killed the environment they said they wanted to save. In their hubris, they deluded themselves into believing that they were right and just, and any opposition to their enlightened, stunning and brave activism, was the reactionary wrongthink of greedy capitalists or ignorant yokels.

https://spectator.us/how-environmentalists-destroyed-california-forests/?fbclid=IwAR3Rc22BjVBmrkkRpSfKCSRPESmxqoqGa6q6R1LdRJa2WFE8-MgDCuGJLIY
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Offline QV

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2020, 14:19:02 »

Quote
Fire is a constant in the mountains of California. There’s always plenty from dry summer thunderstorms. But now that spark, whatever caused it, catches on to a landscape overloaded with dead trees and dry ladder fuels. Every year it gets worse.

I guess they should have "raked and swept" their forest floors after all.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2020, 15:57:23 »
I guess they should have "raked and swept" their forest floors after all.

Twenty to thirty years ago in the Calgary area, forestry experts said that because no controlled burns were allowed to clear away deadfall that wild fires would ensue.
Now I can't say for certain this is the cause of ALL wild fires but it certainly contributes.
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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2020, 16:14:12 »
Twenty to thirty years ago in the Calgary area, forestry experts said that because no controlled burns were allowed to clear away deadfall that wild fires would ensue.
Now I can't say for certain this is the cause of ALL wild fires but it certainly contributes.

Not a new idea either; first nations people were doing prescribed burns as part of their land management since forever.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/indigenous-land-stewardship-native-education-college-vancouver-1.5319029

(Read a better article specifically about this recently, but couldn't find it)

Offline YZT580

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2020, 16:27:40 »
I can't begin to imagine the number of kilowatt hours of electricity that are going up in smoke.  If that same underbrush had been fed into a chipper on a routine basis they could have kept millions of people supplied with power at a fraction the cost of installing wind mills or solar fields.  But those in charge will never admit it.  Instead they blame the automobile and global warming and pass legislation to ensure that their mistakes are never corrected. 

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2020, 19:07:26 »
I can't begin to imagine the number of kilowatt hours of electricity that are going up in smoke.  If that same underbrush had been fed into a chipper on a routine basis they could have kept millions of people supplied with power at a fraction the cost of installing wind mills or solar fields.  But those in charge will never admit it.  Instead they blame the automobile and global warming and pass legislation to ensure that their mistakes are never corrected.

Highlighted because south of Winnipeg there is a field of those stupid windmills - a blight on the landscape.

In the Palm Springs area in California the view has been destroyed because of those stupid ugly windmills.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2020, 19:14:15 »
Fuel accumulation on the ground allows fire to persist and do more damage to trees.  A grass fire can otherwise move quickly through stands of trees without doing much more than charring the outer bark.
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Offline YZT580

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2020, 20:33:26 »
and fire is necessary for jack pines (I believe) to propagate.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2020, 21:05:48 »
Twenty to thirty years ago in the Calgary area, forestry experts said that because no controlled burns were allowed to clear away deadfall that wild fires would ensue.
Now I can't say for certain this is the cause of ALL wild fires but it certainly contributes.

The two main causes of poor forest management practises resulting in big and scary fire seasons, AFAIK are: 1) public pressure to stop prescribed burning in the summer because of the smoke, and 2) public pressure to stop prescribed burning because, every so often, one burn gets away and takes a few houses down.

“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2020, 21:42:32 »
Fuel accumulation on the ground allows fire to persist and do more damage to trees.  A grass fire can otherwise move quickly through stands of trees without doing much more than charring the outer bark.

This is called the "Smokey the Bear Effect". Decades of programs to stop fires through "Smokey the Bear" campaigns (Only you can prevent forest fires/wildfires) has led to a tremendous buildup of fuel which wipes out forests rather than just the (normally) small amounts of underbrush and leaving the trees healthy and soil prepared for new growth.

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2020, 06:42:15 »
Two more key words: urban interface - it's grown and continues to.

Loads of people moving into forested areas that haven't been managed properly.

And this - I fought forest fires in several provinces from 1998 to 2011. The fire behaviour I see and hear about now pales in comparison to what it was twenty years ago. So there's the big ugly old climate change that has affected things as well.

And when weather and fuel are two of the things that make a small fire big...can't do frig all about topography, but as mentioned - people live there now.
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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2020, 06:50:42 »
I have a brief blurb on this on the Land Healing Farm thread. Lots of good points and observations here.
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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2020, 07:19:27 »
I'm currently working in Shilo. Part of that job is to dispose of duds, including just about every caliber of smoke and illum rounds from 60mm mortar to 155mm and even LUU 2 B/D and variants. We try not to set the prairie on fire as best we can, but stuff happens. FF crews are always on hand, but if a fire gets away it has nowhere to go because of a huge network of 30m wide firebreaks all over the area. Every inch of this place has burned at some point, but the prairie springs back healthier than ever in two years. Even the ******* poison ivy thrives after a fire.
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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2020, 07:41:09 »
Even the ******* poison ivy thrives after a fire.

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2020, 11:51:56 »
Two more key words: urban interface - it's grown and continues to.

Loads of people moving into forested areas that haven't been managed properly.

Exactly. Some of my best clients are in the Forest Service and have some good data to show the vast increase in people living in - previously vacant - forest lands over the past three or four decades. Not just for recreational purposes either.

As a result they are now building emergency management policies that focus on 'In-vacuation' as opposed to 'E-vacuation', where they plan to move people into urban areas as opposed to - like we saw at the Ft McMurray fire - forcing them to drive out along very vulnerable-to-fire road systems.

“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
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Offline Donald H

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2020, 12:52:52 »
Fuel accumulation on the ground allows fire to persist and do more damage to trees.  A grass fire can otherwise move quickly through stands of trees without doing much more than charring the outer bark.

That's exactly right Brad, but it fails to address the problem. Here's a suggestion for a change of attitude in California that will address the problem.

When private businesses are left to deal with the problem, nothing will happen because there is no incentive or profit to be made in cleaning up the fuel accumulation.

But when government bears the responsibility the job will get done. Unfortunately, government has to spend taxpayers' money to get it done and that will result in raising taxes.

Would federal government pay money to get it done? Not likely! Does the state government spend money to get it done? NO, for a couple of reasons.

Does Canada spend money to get the same thing done? Yes, in B.C. it gets done because it's mandated that private business has to get it done. (the situatin being slightly different but this serves to make the point.

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2020, 13:36:33 »
Bullsh!t.  If better land management is desired, put land in private hands.  People look after stuff they own.  Politicians look after whatever wins votes.  If the votes are with the people who don't want any forest management ("let nature etc"), then there will be no forest management.  That's California.  To claim that government can solve the problem in some imaginary future after government has manifestly failed to solve the problem in the concrete past and present is risible.
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Offline Donald H

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2020, 14:43:25 »
Bullsh!t.  If better land management is desired, put land in private hands.  People look after stuff they own.  Politicians look after whatever wins votes.  If the votes are with the people who don't want any forest management ("let nature etc"), then there will be no forest management.  That's California.  To claim that government can solve the problem in some imaginary future after government has manifestly failed to solve the problem in the concrete past and present is risible.

It's not working Brad and it's the same for their health care system. Compare theirs to the rest of the world. Or use any of the other examples of America's brand of greedy capitalism not working.

This gets right to the heart of our ideological differences.

America is embarking on a journey in which it will attempt to stand as being different from the rest of the world. If Trump wins I see it as being another experiment in fascism to test if it can work.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2020, 15:02:14 »
America has been different from the rest of the world for almost 250 years.  You're a little late trying to create your story.

Fascism is something some European, Asian, and South American countries are at risk for.  China is closer to fascism (particularly its state-owned and state-directed corporatism, and strong pro-Chinese nationalism) than the US ever will be.
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Offline Weinie

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2020, 20:42:16 »
It's not working Brad and it's the same for their health care system. Compare theirs to the rest of the world. Or use any of the other examples of America's brand of greedy capitalism not working.

This gets right to the heart of our ideological differences.

America is embarking on a journey in which it will attempt to stand as being different from the rest of the world. If Trump wins I see it as being another experiment in fascism to test if it can work.

Hmmmm....... that's interesting. You quoted a few days ago that:

No, that's not what I said. I said I cautiously lean toward Trump, and that was related to how Trump might be better for Canada. If you think I've been dishonest about Trump then you can tell me how.

So are you cautiously leaning towards fascism?
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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2020, 20:50:51 »
I'm starting to think he/she only leans toward trying to get a reaction .....

Any reaction...
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Offline Donald H

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2020, 23:41:43 »
Hmmmm....... that's interesting. You quoted a few days ago that:

So are you cautiously leaning towards fascism?


I weigh in my mind whether Trump or Biden would be the best choice for Canada and for world peace Weinie. And because of Trump's close attachment to Putin, for whatever reason, I cautiously lean toward Trump. And add to that my mind is pretty well made up now that Trump will be the best choice on cooperation with China too. Republicans have tradionally been better on free and fair trade than the Democrats, who favour protecting their working people. It's simply a matter or rightist priorities as compared to leftist priorities. Wouldn't you agree?

As to Trump bringing  fascism to America, I think that's his plan. Months ago I thought this on the basis of his policies on immigrants coming to America alone. (Ask me why on the border wall and how he appealed to the lowest of his base) What Trump does to his country on the domestic political scene is of little interest to me when asked to choose my political priorities. The world has been making preparations for the last two years at least to be able to weather the storm that Trump can  bring on.

Now months later I see a situation in which Trump has been able to pretty much guarantee that America won't be able to pull off a free and fair democratic election. That same fear is now being voiced by thousands of American scholars and as many Republicans  with long respected opinions. David Brooks just tonight on the news for example

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Offline Walt

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2020, 00:10:46 »

 (Ask me why on the border wall and how he appealed to the lowest of his base)
 :cheers:

You offered the opportunity. I'm asking "why?" regarding your statement about the border wall. Take care.

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2020, 11:48:13 »
You offered the opportunity. I'm asking "why?" regarding your statement about the border wall. Take care.

Get back to me on a thread that's right for the topic Walt. I'll be happy to answer some of your questions if I perceive them to be asked in good faith.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: How environmentalists destroyed California’s forests
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2020, 12:49:16 »
Trump isn't China's best hope; Biden is China's best hope.  Trump is demonstrably hostile towards on matters of trade.  And the Democrats are not, and have not been for some time, the party of the working man.  Anyone following US politics for the past few months should be aware of all the anxious navel-gazing Democrats are doing over their shift from "party of the working man" to "party of the people doing really well in America".  Again, false premises produce indeterminate conclusions.

Trump is not bringing fascism to America.  He obviously can't make the press say what he wants (they just push back harder), whereas, for example, the Chinese government can.  He obviously can't tell big companies to do what he wants (eg. social media censorship), whereas, for example, the Chinese government can.  He doesn't have a tame judiciary; if anything, the judges recommended to him that he chooses from will be more inclined to support civil rights.  Contrarily, in places like China, a compliant judiciary does what it's told.  The military in America has manifestly and publicly averred that it isn't going to do the president's domestic bidding, but in a country like China, the military does so.  The US isn't holding any Canadians hostage illegitimately to apply pressure, but China is.  If you're worried about creeping or actual fascism, worry about China.
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