Poll

Is HF necessary on todays battlefield?

Yes
26 (92.9%)
No
0 (0%)
Depends on how we structure the military
2 (7.1%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Voting closed: April 20, 2005, 15:49:08

Author Topic: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause  (Read 44627 times)

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Offline Jungle

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2005, 19:55:10 »
The first one to use the 138 was the mission to Rwanda/Zaire/Uganda in '96.   You might of been the first to use it in the man pack varriant.
Thanks for the clarification; yes we used it in manpack, we carried it around on our backs and on ATVs. We used the 77-set for very-short range foot patrols, or when manning refugee arrival points, all within 500m of the camp.

Quote
  NVIS = Near Verticle Incedent System (or skywave as we say).   The whip wouldn't work?   Did you try a longwire?
The whip didn't work, and we didn't try the longwire. Comms were very problematic over there... so was the GPS for that matter.

Quote
Did you know any of the NRL guys who deployed with you? (satallite guys)
I knew them, but not personally... I believe one was from outside Valcartier, but I think the NRL guys were mostly from 5 CMBG HQ & Sigs.
"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
- John G. Diefenbaker. July 1, 1960. From the Canadian Bill of Rights.

Offline Radop

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2005, 22:02:55 »
I knew them, but not personally... I believe one was from outside Valcartier, but I think the NRL guys were mostly from 5 CMBG HQ & Sigs.
The NRL guys would have been from Kingston.  They had a satillite dish at one site and had BT2s at the other site.  They operated the commcen.
Radop
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Offline Jungle

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2005, 22:16:19 »
The NRL guys would have been from Kingston.   They had a satillite dish at one site and had BT2s at the other site.   They operated the commcen.
OK, the NRL guys were in Dili with the NCE. We never saw them... The BT2s were either at Suai (NSE co-located with NZ Batt SVC Coy) or Zumalai (CDN Coy main camp). I spent most of the tour in patrol bases, away from the main camps.
"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
- John G. Diefenbaker. July 1, 1960. From the Canadian Bill of Rights.

CH1

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2005, 00:10:57 »
Hey guys!

  Do they still teach RF & antenna theory at Kingston?  Part of the comms problem in mtn areas could be caused by iron like ore deposits or low level radiation, or ghosting from the terrain.

  Don't know what the syllabus contains any more, since it's been a long time since I did my courses.
  & yes I am RCCS, but have spent most of my time as 031.
 
  My own expierence with HF leads me to keep HF.  In the early 80's, I did some experimental work with an all band, all mode XCVR that was about the size of 2 packs of cigs with 9 volt batts.  Lo pwr out at 1 watt, with what at the time was experimental plessey chips.  It worked great when I used long wire for the antenna, in the Rockies.  Maybe the military needs to rethink the boat anchor theory again like when the C33/AT3 finally bought the bullet.

Cheers

Offline Radop

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2005, 00:29:03 »
Very limited theory taught now in kingston.  They don't construct field expediant antennas or anything like that.  They are too busy teaching them LAN systems (over a month) when only 1% or less of the guys coming out of the school will go to an IS position.  I think it is sad how little time they spend on actual VP, Radio Theory/Practical and daily det routine.  That is more of the reason why our people don't know the radio systems and what to do if they break.
Radop
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Offline Ex-fusilier

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2005, 01:07:17 »
As for the discussion regarding the security of cell phones......no matter what the companies come up with for encryption or security, someone's usually figured out a way to intercept and decode it before it even hits the commercial market.  And the STU-III cells are useless, they're known far and wide as the "cone of silence".  IP phones are fairly secure and fast becoming the new fad in secure comms. 
Even if you put a piece of string between two cans, somehow we'll manage to tie a third string onto it and listen in without you knowing  :P >:D

Offline jb12341123

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2005, 02:19:40 »
Hello,

Just thought I'd add my two cents in here.

HF Comms - Essential in the Navy for intership and ship/shore comms.  Wether that be plainvoice, secure voice or radio teletype (RATT).  We use them all, and all the time at sea.  Although radio teletype for receipt and transmission of message traffic has been somewhat taken over by satellite, it is still essential in the case that satcom ceases to work or when in areas at sea where satcom is not an option (out of the footprint).

HF Voice (Plain/Secure) is essential for over the horizon communications with other units as UHF as we all know is line of sight.

-Ryan



CH1

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2005, 08:54:51 »
  Its too bad that they are not teaching enough of the "low level tech" stuff any more.  I realise the computer is taking over but basic antenna & propogation theory is still vital info.  From what I see, the eqt is supposed to be more operator freindly, but "appliance operators" are just that.  It still takes some basic knowledge to make even something like the dinosaur 19 set work to it's potental. 
  This rant is not intended to discredit the operators but to high light systemic problems.  You can only work with the equipment & knowledge you are given.  Years ago, even the grunt on the end of a PRC 26 or 510 received basic antenna & propogation theory. 

  It appears that the powers are caught in the tech trap. They can't see the trees for the forest.

  cheers

Offline DaveK

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2005, 09:19:37 »
Anyone who takes basic comms is taught antenna theory and how to calculate length.  They are also taught propagation and the different types of radio waves.

Offline Radop

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2005, 18:07:36 »
As for the discussion regarding the security of cell phones......no matter what the companies come up with for encryption or security, someone's usually figured out a way to intercept and decode it before it even hits the commercial market.   And the STU-III cells are useless, they're known far and wide as the "cone of silence".   IP phones are fairly secure and fast becoming the new fad in secure comms.  
Even if you put a piece of string between two cans, somehow we'll manage to tie a third string onto it and listen in without you knowing   :P >:D

one word and 4 numbers for you

Iridium 9505

Intercept that 291er, lol
Radop
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Offline Bert

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2005, 18:46:32 »
I guess one would have to define the course content for antenna, transmission, and propagation
theory and at what level is necessary for comms operators, technicians, or engineers.      As radio equipment
and servicability evolves, the military education system may be tweaked.   Alot of radio equipment is
puchased as a kit, from power supplies, transceivers, coax, to antennas; meaning this "radio" goes with
this "antenna" today.   Building field antennas like simple dipoles for HF radios are easy but constructing similar
antennas at 800 MHz impedence matched for medium power transmitters with acceptable coverage
and not blowing the PA is another thing.   Alot of field problems are servicable on-the-spot like broken
connectors, bad cables, swapping of defective equipment.   Replacing oscillators, tuning radios, fixing power
supplies, measuring field strength, SWR, or using a spectrum analyser takes parts, location, and more specific
knowledge.

As for the Iridium system, any intelligence service with the listening capability is monitoring the comms.   Whether
they get any content from encoded comms is another story, but a fair portion of the engineering of what
Motorola/consortium put into it is "public" knowldege.

Offline Ex-fusilier

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2005, 23:54:20 »
Toucher Radop Toucher
However, if I can't break it, I am sure my secret squirrel brothers down south sure can hehehehe.

Offline signalsguy

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2005, 20:01:45 »
Toucher Radop Toucher
However, if I can't break it, I am sure my secret squirrel brothers down south sure can hehehehe.

Especially since the US DOD owns the system, don't they?

Offline Radop

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2005, 20:11:23 »
I have one in my det, don't think I will turn it in when I leave.  I love it.  But alas, yes the US owns all our crypto except for the 522s.  We just have them on some agreement.  Look at the DTDs, they say government of US Property.

But, back to HF..... You can intercept the signal but with the 99s, it is hard to get intel other than DF the loc.  If you move every few hours, then you should be ok.  Better yet, use directional antennas.
Radop
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CH1

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2005, 23:19:49 »
  Thx Bert, for the clearing the muddy waters.  Being assigned away fm sigs except the odd take charge of a det, has taken the toll.  Been 031 for along time now & have lost touch.  Most of my buddies have long  retired now so I don't get to keep in touch.

  As long as they are still teaching at least basic antenna & propogation theory, there is always a chance that a sig will figure a way to talk.

  1 trick I used on HF & VHF was to carry 2 foil space blankets, as portable directors.  Small & light.  Not good for a hide but worked good on the fwd CP.  Once or twice even used a tree for the antenna.  Short range but it proved the concept.  Terminal impedence was definetely a problem!

  Yep, I agree, the solid state finals do not like a mismatch.  Didn't see it personally, but from what I heard the C45's were real touchy in the finals.  Had the odd tendency to flame out. The old C42's were a little more tolerant but had other problems.

  There is a great demand on the functions of a radio, especially in mil use, but the engineers should have to use their creations in the enviornment.  Maybe some of the quirks would disappear.

cheers

 

Offline Ex-fusilier

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2005, 07:01:50 »
Some people seem to think HF is dead, but they tend to forget some of the countries that may not have the comms capabilities we do.  HF is still widely used in the world as it is relatively cheap and effective comms.  Plus when you get into things like tropospheric ducting and meteor burst, then we can increase the range.  There's all sorts of signals being propagated through the HF spectrum still, and I suspect there will be for some time to come. 

Offline Radop

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2005, 10:09:12 »
For some reason, some of my colegues seem to think it is imposible to jam HF.  I asked them why they would think that?  HF can put out a lot of power so the jammer would have to put out a lot as well.  That could prove deadly for them the same as when were blasting out RF.  I talked to some of the new guys and they thought field expediant antennas were the b&w antenna.  When I asked how they build a multi-freq di-pole they looked at me like I had two heads.  Two of us were talking about a rombic antenna the other day and one of the young guys asked us if we thought he was born yesterday.  We both replied yes as he didn't know what type of antenna that was.
Radop
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elbarto

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2005, 16:18:04 »
I'm saying yes because:

1.  Last time I used any type of satellite comms, there was always a concern over the fact that the up link/downlink time had to be leased, rented etc.  The costs for using HF is still much more affordable in these days of fiscal restraint.

2.  HF is still likely  to be used in any type of joint operations with the other services.

3.  Even though they are apparently starting to become rare, a Rad Op might still find onself in a posting using HF - ie MACS. For an operator to go into a situation like that, a working knowledge of HF along with some hands-on experience makes life much easier than having to learn everything OJT.

Offline Radop

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2005, 22:46:14 »
Well said Art
Radop
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Offline signalsguy

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2005, 07:20:44 »
HF is still used all over the place, maybe not in a tactical setting, but definitely strategic. I even know of a long haul ADDN link that goes from Esquimalt to Aukland, New Zealand, using HF!

A lot of the eastern European countries are using HF based data comms sytems, even using gateways into the internet, and into their own wired networks. I have seen email sent from a laptop running outlook hooked up to an HF set, coming up on my system on a network that had the gateway connected. Very cool

Offline Radop

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2005, 20:04:55 »
HF is still used all over the place, maybe not in a tactical setting, but definitely strategic. I even know of a long haul ADDN link that goes from Esquimalt to Aukland, New Zealand, using HF!

A lot of the eastern European countries are using HF based data comms sytems, even using gateways into the internet, and into their own wired networks. I have seen email sent from a laptop running outlook hooked up to an HF set, coming up on my system on a network that had the gateway connected. Very cool

I agree except that I think it is just as important in a tactical setting and less in strategic.  As an NCCIS Op, I have satcom back ups to my satcom primary and an HF backup to the backup.  We had to push for an HF exercise so that we could maintain the skill set
Radop
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Offline Canadian Sig

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2005, 14:02:52 »
Howdy Radop... Just thought you might like to know that the Sqn is taking HF very seriously. Just came back from up north where we maintained an HF rear-link and used SAS via secure HF. Also did some testing with our Brit counterparts. It seems that those in charge of the Sqn these days like the HF system and plan on maintaining its usefullness through training of the new guys.  :salute:
V.V.V.

 The secret of war lies in the communications
   Napoleon Boneparte

Offline signalsguy

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2005, 15:51:47 »
Did you have Inmarsat or Iridium systems as well, or did you just rely on HF. What HF system was used? MCT?

Offline Canadian Sig

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2005, 16:01:07 »
We were just using the 138 amped system out of a rad v ( with NVIS )  :cdn:
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 The secret of war lies in the communications
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Offline Radop

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2005, 17:15:33 »
Were was "up North", in the Yukon or NWT?  We were going to try HF SAS in Afghanistan but never got the chance with all the other things we tried.  Those wienies in Rover troop could never get that right even.  lol.  So how is the Sqn in Pet doing?  Tell Tracey congradulations on getting top cantidate on his TQ 5 course.  I just heard that he did very well on the course.

I did do some testing going up TV Hill with mobile HF.  I had also done it in the Regiment in the Late 90s as well (after 96 but before 98) with the IRPVs back then.  But that is a story for some time I am up there with everyone wearing helmets.  lol.   :warstory:
Radop
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