Logistic Vehicle Modernization Project - Replacing everything from LUVW to SHLVW

[PrairieFella]

Not just something, you need a lot of different things.

It shouldn’t be that hard at all.

I mean FFS, just go buy 5k of something off a US DoD Contract as a place holder

We literally just need something. Its a armoured logistics truck program with an unarmoured domestic component, not a destroyer design. We'll be alright if its an 87% solution over a 93% solution. But a decision just needs to be made. The delays on this program hurts the entire Army but it is disproportionately hurting the RCAC because they cannot fill the deployment numbers without significant reserve augmentation but reservists cant get trained since there are next to no GWagons left and that's just for drivers, nevermind the gunnery bottleneck.

 

[KevinB]

We literally just need something. Its a armoured logistics truck program with an unarmoured domestic component, not a destroyer design.

Yeah.
FMTV
We just bid out production every 5 years, and some periodic updates occur.

Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We'll be alright if its an 87% solution over a 93% solution. But a decision just needs to be made. The delays on this program hurts the entire Army but it is disproportionately hurting the RCAC because they cannot fill the deployment numbers without significant reserve augmentation but reservists cant get trained since there are next to no GWagons left and that's just for drivers, nevermind the gunnery bottleneck.

Hey we are cancelling JLTV, I’m sure you could get a bunch

 

[PrairieFella]

Yeah.
FMTV
We just bid out production every 5 years, and some periodic updates occur.

Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hey we are cancelling JLTV, I’m sure you could get a bunch

I think we both know the chance JTLV has in the current political climate haha. Its a cool truck dont get me wrong, probably just not feasible.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yeah.
FMTV
We just bid out production every 5 years, and some periodic updates occur.

I really wished we had tapped into that program, decent vehicles with lots of support.

 

[CBH99]

I look at the very real wins the RCN and RCAF are getting these days and I'm happy for them but man, shit is grim from my perspective.

What has ya feeling like that?

 

[Kirkhill]

Proving that that which is old is new again.



Roshel Senator (based on the Ford F550) and the Humber Pig (based on the Humber CT)

Humber Pig - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Humber 1 ton CT Truck in Australian Service by Paul D. Handel

It is not unreasonable to use a common base for unarmoured GS vehicles and specialist armoured vehicles.

 

[PrairieFella]

What has ya feeling like that?

Venting at the time how the delays in this program is destroying the Armoured Reserve units. I was being a bit dramatic but the sentiment still stands haha.

 

[KevinB]

Venting at the time how the delays in this program is destroying the Armoured Reserve units. I was being a bit dramatic but the sentiment still stands haha.

But honestly that shouldn’t be a Armoured Vehicle for anyone.

In the same way that the Iltis with a C6 bungeed to the folded windshield wasn’t a Armoured Recce vehicle either.

 

[PrairieFella]

But honestly that shouldn’t be a Armoured Vehicle for anyone.

In the same way that the Iltis with a C6 bungeed to the folded windshield wasn’t a Armoured Recce vehicle either.

No it shouldn't, but unfortunately the LUVW is what we have. You can reasonably train a crewman in a GWagon, with fire control orders, crew skills, driving fundamentals, comms and tactics being similar. Its a cheap way to train our guys in a non-plentiful kit environment. I'd rather we have a real AFV but at least I can give my guys an approximation of the real deal so the skills are there when they augment the Strats. Its worked reasonably well with the 30ish dudes we've deployed to Latvia with the Armour Sqn. The lack of LUVW is completely hollowing out that baseline training level of armoured reservists. They dont get any pintle time beyond ranges when we can scrape together a couple OUT/U trucks so their gunner skills fade. They dont get experience on a proper CNR system and dont get to maintain one. They dont get to practice good driving fundamentals since our golf carts cant really leave the areas right around the blacktracks. There is some stuff we can still do like board shoots and dismounted stuff like recces and OPs, but the quality of the average trooper has been in decline over the past five years, despite efforts to arrest that slide.

Another factor that's overlooked by higher-ups when we talk to them is morale is in the fucking tubes. Would anyone here want to show up for an Ex as an armoured crewmen when nothing works and we're riding around in golf carts flashing our lights to represent a main gun firing or at best going drive by style with C9s?

 

[KevinB]

The drive by C6 Iltis range we did in Afghanistan was fun albeit with zero practical relevance. @MJP probably can vouch for it being impractical and of questionable safety wt times, as one should never try to kneel in the back (of any vehicle) and shoot a C6 from the hip like that.

 

[Maxman1]

I really wished we had tapped into that program, decent vehicles with lots of support.

And it's based on the same truck as the HLVW.

 

[MJP]

The drive by C6 Iltis range we did in Afghanistan was fun albeit with zero practical relevance. @MJP probably can vouch for it being impractical and of questionable safety wt times, as one should never try to kneel in the back (of any vehicle) and shoot a C6 from the hip like that.

Yup useless AF and dodgy. Fun as all get out tho. The walking bursts were slightly less useless and dangerous but still of questionable value. Did give people an appreciation of how little use a longer burst from an unsupported/unstable firing posn was (see also firing from moving iltis).

 

[KevinB]

Yup useless AF and dodgy. Fun as all get out tho. The walking bursts were slightly less useless and dangerous but still of questionable value. Did give people an appreciation of how little use a longer burst from an unsupported/unstable firing posn was (see also firing from moving iltis).

Well admittedly it did prove that the Belgian Para’s where smoking crack when they thought their Iltis patrols had effective firepower.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Senator or another Roshel product right now can fix the problems facing Armd Reserves right now and do it with Canadian money and jobs, which improve GDP and limits impact on foreign debt. Driveline parts and maintenance can be sourced locally. it is politically easy and will sell well. It will also help the company to expand their foreign sales, broadening our defense industries. You are going to have to accept the lesser solutions for the Reserves, because I do not believe the money or the priority will be there for at least another decade, as we pay for F35's, P8's, subs, corvettes and AD equipment.
Thinking we are getting any topline equipment for the Reserves right now is basically Pornhub level fantasy. Wish I was wrong, but I strongly feel I am right.

 

[PrairieFella]

The Senator or another Roshel product right now can fix the problems facing Armd Reserves right now and do it with Canadian money and jobs, which improve GDP and limits impact on foreign debt. Driveline parts and maintenance can be sourced locally. it is politically easy and will sell well. It will also help the company to expand their foreign sales, broadening our defense industries. You are going to have to accept the lesser solutions for the Reserves, because I do not believe the money or the priority will be there for at least another decade, as we pay for F35's, P8's, subs, corvettes and AD equipment.
Thinking we are getting any topline equipment for the Reserves right now is basically Pornhub level fantasy. Wish I was wrong, but I strongly feel I am right.

We were never going to get top of the line equipment even if we weren't actively rebuilding the Navy and the Air Force. Thr best we might get is some second hand LAV 6s depoted at bases if new LAVs start rolling in. That'd probably the extent of it.

We just need something with some sort of gunnery and comms. We can work with that to a reasonable approximation.

 

[KevinB]

We were never going to get top of the line equipment even if we weren't actively rebuilding the Navy and the Air Force. Thr best we might get is some second hand LAV 6s depoted at bases if new LAVs start rolling in. That'd probably the extent of it.

We just need something with some sort of gunnery and comms. We can work with that to a reasonable approximation.

I think your looking at that from the Army of 2023 view point.

The Army that was sort of symmetrical and ignored the PRes.

I believe that the LAV’s days in the CA are numbered from a primary ISC/IFV standpoint.
As such I believe there will be a tracked system adopted for at least 1 Bde.
That will then greatly affect what and how Armoured PRes units are structured (as well probably a lot of PRes trades based on how I interpreted the comments about asking too much of the PRes).

 

[PrairieFella]

I think your looking at that from the Army of 2023 view point.

The Army that was sort of symmetrical and ignored the PRes.

I believe that the LAV’s days in the CA are numbered from a primary ISC/IFV standpoint.
As such I believe there will be a tracked system adopted for at least 1 Bde.
That will then greatly affect what and how Armoured PRes units are structured (as well probably a lot of PRes trades based on how I interpreted the comments about asking too much of the PRes).

I hope you're right, but I dont expect much at all for the MO. C'est la vie.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think your looking at that from the Army of 2023 view point.

The Army that was sort of symmetrical and ignored the PRes.

I believe that the LAV’s days in the CA are numbered from a primary ISC/IFV standpoint.
As such I believe there will be a tracked system adopted for at least 1 Bde.
That will then greatly affect what and how Armoured PRes units are structured (as well probably a lot of PRes trades based on how I interpreted the comments about asking too much of the PRes).

Unless GDSL here in Canada gets the lions share of the work on a LAV replacement, I do not see the LAV being replaced as the primary non-MBT AFV of the CAF. If we are lucky it will be complimented by tracked IFV to directly support the MBT's.

 

[GR66]

The Senator or another Roshel product right now can fix the problems facing Armd Reserves right now and do it with Canadian money and jobs, which improve GDP and limits impact on foreign debt. Driveline parts and maintenance can be sourced locally. it is politically easy and will sell well. It will also help the company to expand their foreign sales, broadening our defense industries. You are going to have to accept the lesser solutions for the Reserves, because I do not believe the money or the priority will be there for at least another decade, as we pay for F35's, P8's, subs, corvettes and AD equipment.
Thinking we are getting any topline equipment for the Reserves right now is basically Pornhub level fantasy. Wish I was wrong, but I strongly feel I am right.

I agree that topline vehicles for the Reserves are pretty low down the current priority list for the CAF but curious as to why you specifically recommend a Roshel product for the Armoured Reserves. None of them really suit a mud-recce role (if that's even viable in the age of drones) and none of them are suitable as a lead-in trainer for tanks. Just use them as a taxi for dismounted recce? Get a customized version with a surveillance suite? Create a new Armoured Recce role as UAV operators?

To me the Roshel products would seem to be a better match for Reserve Infantry units as protected mobility for light infantry. Just curious as to your thought process.

 

[PrairieFella]

I agree that topline vehicles for the Reserves are pretty low down the current priority list for the CAF but curious as to why you specifically recommend a Roshel product for the Armoured Reserves. None of them really suit a mud-recce role (if that's even viable in the age of drones) and none of them are suitable as a lead-in trainer for tanks. Just use them as a taxi for dismounted recce? Get a customized version with a surveillance suite? Create a new Armoured Recce role as UAV operators?

To me the Roshel products would seem to be a better match for Reserve Infantry units as protected mobility for light infantry. Just curious as to your thought process.

He says that because they would be the replacement for the LUVW which is the primary platform for the ARes Armoured units. We have a couple TAPVs when they work but the bulk of the work is done on G Wagons. Since there is no Light/Medium Cav platforms anywhere on the books atm, that's the best we could do. I've been of the mind lately though that the ARes Armoured units should get the TLAVs with RWS depoted at central bases and sign for them so they can at least get some track time and a gunnery PCF for career advancement past Cpl. Run them until they die and hope a suitable replacement comes in the future.