Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle - RG-31, LAV Coyote, and (partial) G-Wagon Replacement

[PrairieFella]

One can only hope that with the 1 and 2 Div restructure, an adequate amount of full-time personnel will be directed into 2 Div. If not then all my thoughts about the lack of vision of army planners will be borne out.

Here's to hoping haha.

 

[suffolkowner]

In my opinion the Senator will do about 80-90% of what a TAPV can do, but do that part better, cheaper and we can have more of them. Plus we are spending dollars in Canada. TAPV is our Ajax.

LUV-SMP is up to 2500 and
LUV-Milcots up to 700 last i read on NOAH
so lets say
2500 Roshel Senators
700 Milverados
maybe we need to plus up the JLTV order from the 70 for NGFV?

 

[PrairieFella]

LUV-SMP is up to 2500 and
LUV-Milcots up to 700 last i read on NOAH
so lets say
2500 Roshel Senators
700 Milverados
maybe we need to plus up the JLTV order from the 70 for NGFV?

JTLV is a complete non-starter for non-SOF. Imagine the explosion in the media if an American-made platform when a Canadian alternative (ie Senator) exists. What puzzles me is why they havent pulled the trigger on Senator yet, its obvious Roshel is the heir apparent, its made in Canada, successful in Ukraine, and its not like this project is short on time, its been 13 years at this point.

 

[suffolkowner]

JTLV is a complete non-starter for non-SOF. Imagine the explosion in the media if an American-made platform when a Canadian alternative (ie Senator) exists. What puzzles me is why they havent pulled the trigger on Senator yet, its obvious Roshel is the heir apparent, its made in Canada, successful in Ukraine, and its not like this project is short on time, its been 13 years at this point.

well as usual its been restarted and reorganized
the Milcot and the SMP have been separated now i think so no requirement for a vendor to supply both

 

[PrairieFella]

well as usual its been restarted and reorganized
the Milcot and the SMP have been separated now i think so no requirement for a vendor to supply both

Paralysis by analysis. The DLR special.

 

[KevinB]

JTLV is a complete non-starter for non-SOF. Imagine the explosion in the media if an American-made platform when a Canadian alternative (ie Senator) exists. What puzzles me is why they havent pulled the trigger on Senator yet, its obvious Roshel is the heir apparent, its made in Canada, successful in Ukraine, and its not like this project is short on time, its been 13 years at this point.

I don’t get the love in about the Senator.
It’s a Ford 550 with armor.
It isn’t a first line vehicle. It definitely isn’t a JLTV as the protection levels aren’t even close.

I don’t get the JLTV outside of certain rovers.
It makes a UA Hummer look like an Iltis. It certainly isn’t a good SOF system.

If you need JLTV protection, you probably should bring an ABCT.

 

[daftandbarmy]

One can only hope that with the 1 and 2 Div restructure, an adequate amount of full-time personnel will be directed into 2 Div. If not then all my thoughts about the lack of vision of army planners will be borne out.

Well, now that they've created a 'Leper Colony' at least the Reg F will be able to ensure good behaviour in Manoevre Div by threatening the bad performers with a posting to the Sin Bin/ Continental Div.

That was often the case in the British Army, where there's never been any attempt to integrate Reg and Reserve in the ways that Canada has done (up until now anyways), and the '2nd Eleven' would get the TA postings.

 

[FJAG]

Well, now that they've created a 'Leper Colony' at least the Reg F will be able to ensure good behaviour in Manoevre Div by threatening the bad performers with a posting to the Sin Bin/ Continental Div.

That was often the case in the British Army, where there's never been any attempt to integrate Reg and Reserve in the ways that Canada has done (up until now anyways), and the '2nd Eleven' would get the TA postings.

Yeah. It's Déjà vu all over again - it won't be log before they call them MilAreas and MilDists again. Or worse, right back to the late 1960s with the Militia divided into those units earmarked as augmenting the RegF and those relegated to the Snakes and Ladders dregs.

I detest the entire structure. It's a stillborn outgrowth of the army's fetish at being consumed with their need to control their day-to-day force generation roto needs for expeditionary missions rather than creating a superior mobilization strategy that concurrently can force generate rotos. I expect there will be lots of room for Class B jobs in 2 Div which will lead to a continuation of the capbility death spiral.

 

[CBH99]

One can only hope that with the 1 and 2 Div restructure, an adequate amount of full-time personnel will be directed into 2 Div. If not then all my thoughts about the lack of vision of army planners will be borne out.

Just wondering as I have absolutely no details or insights into this 1 and 2 Div restructure - but is the idea something along the lines of 1 CAD and 2 CAD??

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Just wondering as I have absolutely no details or insights into this 1 and 2 Div restructure - but is the idea something along the lines of 1 CAD and 2 CAD??

No.

 

[PrairieFella]

I don’t get the love in about the Senator.
It’s a Ford 550 with armor.
It isn’t a first line vehicle. It definitely isn’t a JLTV as the protection levels aren’t even close.

Its not a frontline vehicle. Its an A Ech and back vehicle which we desperately need. Its an 85% solution that supports our domestic industry and if the Ukrainians like them, which they do, thats good enough for me. Lots of videos floating around of them surviving drone and mine strikes.

 

[McG]

Its not a frontline vehicle. Its an A Ech …

Don’t be sloppy with doctrine or you will make bad decisions. F Ech Does not have a monopoly on being in the frontlines. A1 echelon should have mobility and protection characteristics similar to the supported F Ech. B Ech can get away with softer vehicles.

 

[PrairieFella]

Don’t be sloppy with doctrine or you will make bad decisions. F Ech Does not have a monopoly on being in the frontlines. A1 echelon should have mobility and protection characteristics similar to the supported F Ech. B Ech can get away with softer vehicles.

In the A1 fastpack sure, the slowpack will not be similarly protected vehicles.

 

[McG]

fastpack

slowpack

You are not speaking in doctrine.

 

[PrairieFella]

You are not speaking in doctrine.

Im speaking in colloquial terms used to refer to different parts of the A1 ech, I didnt realize this was a seminar and speaking in doctrine was necessary.

 

[McG]

Im speaking in colloquial terms used to refer to different parts of the A1 ech, I didnt realize this was a seminar and speaking in doctrine was necessary.

You are inventing imaginary layers of the echelon system to argue suitability of a vehicle. That places your argument on a foundation of fantasy. While it should not be on the FLOT, the A1 echelon needs survivability for “the frontlines” because it is up there.

 

[markppcli]

You are inventing imaginary layers of the echelon system to argue suitability of a vehicle. That places your argument on a foundation of fantasy. While it should not be on the FLOT, the A1 echelon needs survivability for “the frontlines” because it is up there.

I dont think fast pack and slow pack are imaginary distinctions. While not formal doctrine they are absolutely how we actually work.

 

[PrairieFella]

You are inventing imaginary layers of the echelon system to argue suitability of a vehicle. That places your argument on a foundation of fantasy. While it should not be on the FLOT, the A1 echelon needs survivability for “the frontlines” because it is up there.

Youve obviously never worked with an armoured squadron where we use fast and slowpack as terms constantly. Pretty sure its used in the infantry too. Since you arent familiar with the term Ill help you out. Fastpack is the element under command of the SSM, consists of the SSM's AFV, the armoured amb, the ARV/wrecker and sometimes an armoured MRT. The slowpack is the logistics vehicles one-two bounds behind the fight and is led by the Admin Sgt in an AFV and a bunch of trucks. Both elements are part of the A1 ech and form the Admin Troop in an amoured squadron. Yes - there are logistics vehicles like Mack trucks a bound back and yes - they do so all the time.

Believe it or not this isnt the staff college, I can use the actual terms we use on the ground, shocking and impetuous, I know.

 

[McG]

I have spent plenty of time in combat teams of all types & various sizes. I have also spent too much time in an F Ech traveling to meet an A1 that could not get to were it needed to be. You are confusing how things should be with how we make do.

Because CAF was cheap, army canceled large quantities of MTV Cargo (MTVC) in the early 2000s and A1 echelons improvised with HLVW. Let’s not double down on a handicap of today because we know how we do things and don’t need to reference/know doctrine.