Author Topic: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents  (Read 5452 times)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2019, 20:12:31 »
Alex Thomas would be less fearful of this "modern symbol of military violence" if he'd had opportunity to witness them get "stuck" on wet grass on an advance thru the Lawfield.

 8)

Remove the Ferret to somewhere it will be appreciated.  Let the Channel 8s decide if they are going to continue to show up on Nov 11th. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 20:16:46 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2019, 20:38:05 »
Alex Thomas would be less fearful of this "modern symbol of military violence" if he'd had opportunity to witness them get "stuck" on wet grass on an advance thru the Lawfield.

 8)

Remove the Ferret to somewhere it will be appreciated.  Let the Channel 8s decide if they are going to continue to show up on Nov 11th.

You rekon the upset residents would turn away soldiers.in uniforms sandbagging their houses during floods? Camouflage uniforms and military vehicles obviously being a sign of violence and glorifying war and all?
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2019, 20:42:05 »
You rekon the upset residents would turn away soldiers.in uniforms sandbagging their houses during floods? Camouflage uniforms and military vehicles obviously being a sign of violence and glorifying war and all?

I don't seem to recall Alex Thomas protesting the troops driving around earlier this year with the SJ River was spilling over, nope!

There is this though...https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/army-flood-love-persists-1.5109428
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2019, 21:54:05 »
I don't seem to recall Alex Thomas protesting the troops driving around earlier this year with the SJ River was spilling over, nope!

There is this though...https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/army-flood-love-persists-1.5109428

Those LAVs driving around town in your link only have small 25mm canons and are just "light" armored vehicles.

On the other hand, "The Cougar is a modern vehicle that represents military violence" and has a giant 76mm canon. 

Big difference ;)



(edited for humour fail)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 08:07:43 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2019, 23:05:31 »
Maybe the nay-sayers will go for one of these. ;D

Quote
https://www.popsci.com/arquus-scarabee-french-military-vehicle/
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 23:09:12 by BeyondTheNow »
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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2019, 07:21:14 »
You rekon the upset residents would turn away soldiers.in uniforms sandbagging their houses during floods? Camouflage uniforms and military vehicles obviously being a sign of violence and glorifying war and all?

Sackville being at the forefront of the rising Bay of Fundy/lacklustre dyke system issue, I'd think it's more probability that we'll see soldiers sandbagging there in the future.

I digress.

Having lived in the town, I am completely surprised by this backlash and can only assume that the vocal minority gets the attention here. That said, it really doesn't matter much to my stance because I find myself completely onside with FJs commentary.

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2019, 10:41:04 »
Those LAVs driving around town in your link only have small 25mm canons and are just "light" armored vehicles.

On the other hand, "The Cougar is a modern vehicle that represents military violence" and has a giant 76mm canon

If you've ever been behind the trigger of a pumpkin launcher, you wouldn't be saying that! :)
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Offline gcclarke

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2019, 13:00:27 »

But I will gladly maintain that anyone who thinks displaying any sort of military vehicle, or paying tribute to a specific aspect of the military and/or its soldiers (or parades, or Remembrance Day ceremonies or whathaveyou) is in some way glorifying war, is undeniably ignorant, grossly uninformed and undeservingly selfish. It has nothing to do with rights.


I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Someone who considers displaying an armoured vehicle in a park to be glorifying war is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint. Honestly, I think it's probably one I agree with; the question is just whether or not said glorification is viewed as a good thing or a bad thing.

This isn't like a Remembrance Day ceremony or anything of the like where there's the rest of the stuff going on to contextualize it, and focus upon the horrors of war. It's a cool piece of kit in a park. That's what people will see when they head to the park. Sticking a few plaques on an armoured vehicle doesn't actually magically turn it into a proper war memorial IMHO.
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Offline FJAG

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2019, 13:20:30 »
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Someone who considers displaying an armoured vehicle in a park to be glorifying war is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint. Honestly, I think it's probably one I agree with; the question is just whether or not said glorification is viewed as a good thing or a bad thing.

This isn't like a Remembrance Day ceremony or anything of the like where there's the rest of the stuff going on to contextualize it, and focus upon the horrors of war. It's a cool piece of kit in a park. That's what people will see when they head to the park. Sticking a few plaques on an armoured vehicle doesn't actually magically turn it into a proper war memorial IMHO.

Especially when the only war we ever had it for was the Cold War.

I've never considered a military memorial, whether an obelisk, or statue or an armored vehicle a "war" memorial, but a tribute or sign of remembrance or acknowledgement to the soldiers who served their country at that time whether in combat or not. Like you I see where others' views may vary--they don't concern me. Where I get concerned is where a small, loud, bullying group can shout down the majority and influence municipal decision makers to do the (IMHO) wrong thing.

I tend to believe that Nixon was right in that there is a "silent majority" that needs to be considered by our politicians. Unfortunately they won't do that until the "silent majority" starts using its voice either in the press or at the polls.

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Offline Rick Goebel

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2019, 14:28:54 »
Maybe they should have called it a Peacekeeping Memorial since we actually used the Cougar on Peacekeeping in former Yugoslavia but indeed, as FJAG said, "the only war we ever had it for was the Cold War".
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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2019, 14:39:08 »
Maybe they should have called it a Peacekeeping Memorial since we actually used the Cougar on Peacekeeping in former Yugoslavia but indeed, as FJAG said, "the only war we ever had it for was the Cold War".

The Boats deployed to Somalia too.
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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2019, 15:35:48 »
Seems like the people of Sussex are getting all sorts of advice from coast to coast.

Perhaps they are doing the right thing by taking a pause to privately discuss it among themselves.

I stared up in awe at that Lancaster many times in a local park over a 33 year period. My father was very disappointed when they took it away. So was I.

The only "cougars" I see are parked at the local watering holes.

I would certainly have no objections if they want to park an old military vehicle in a local park. An M135 would also be nice.

When the DND insisted municipal taxpayers sign a liability waiver in case of injury, it reminded me of what is going on in the city  where I live.

Our Parks Dept. gets sued so often - with the cost passed on to the municipal taxpayers - they removed the sandbox's and  older pieces, including a digging contraption kids used to pretend to excavate dinosaur bones.

The climbing towers are now very low, the slides are small, and the swings are designed to prevent users from gaining any altitude or speed. I've always enjoyed taking my children, and now my grand-children, there. Even played there myself when I was a kid.

It's safer now. But, not as much fun.

Everything these days seems to be about risk management and litigation.

Edit spelling.







« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 20:58:32 by mariomike »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2019, 15:54:09 »
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Someone who considers displaying an armoured vehicle in a park to be glorifying war is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint. Honestly, I think it's probably one I agree with;

Would you say there is a difference between displaying an armored vehicle "in a park" and displaying an armored vehicle in a memorial park, along side other memorial displays.

Ferret armored car, anchor, picture of the hmcs Sackville, propeller from an rcaf plane, stone obelisk.

https://mynewbrunswick.ca/sackville-memorial-park/
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 17:18:15 by Jarnhamar »
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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2019, 16:06:00 »
https://mynewbrunswick.ca/sackville-memorial-park/

I was looking at the memorial with all those names. Then at the population during that era,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sackville,_New_Brunswick#Demographics

The impact on a town that size must have been staggering.

Offline gcclarke

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2019, 19:13:03 »
Would you say there is a difference between displaying an armored vehicle "in a park" and displaying an armored vehicle in a memorial park, along side other memorial displays.

Ferret armored car, anchor, picture of the hmcs Sackville, propeller from an rcaf plane, stone obelisk.

https://mynewbrunswick.ca/sackville-memorial-park/

Honestly, no. I would not say there is a difference. A memorial needs to look like it's a memorial, not a vehicle. It needs to be clear at first (or at least second) glance that the purpose of the object is to commemorate the dead. Parts of vehicles or vehicles themselves can be incorporated into memorials, sure. Props, anchors, etc. Or, say, depictions of vehicles. Something like a statue depicting the burnt out husk of a tank could do the trick. Or this unique memorial in Lebanon.

But just the vehicles themselves, even if with a few plaques, or in a park with other memorials? No, I don't think that's effectively serving the purpose.

I mean, let's put it this way: we're all supposed to salute war memorials, right? I expect said memorials to be designed in a manner that I can actually tell when approaching them that they are war memorials, rather than being expected to go up and read every plaque, to be able to tell the difference between this vehicle that's supposedly a memorial and this other one that's just there to look cool.

Form should follow function. Memorials that aren't recognizable as such are failing to attain their purported goal.
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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2019, 09:51:47 »
Honestly, no. I would not say there is a difference. A memorial needs to look like it's a memorial, not a vehicle.

Does it though? Couldn't either be effective? Or both be effective?

I took my (young) kids for a stroll in a park a few weeks ago.

In that park, there's a rather large howitzer, and we decided it was a good place to sit down, eat ice cream and pick dandelions.

While were there, they asked what it (the howitzer) was.

I did my best to explain in terms a preschooler could understand, and more importantly, got to tell him about a few of their great-great-uncles,who had fought through europe with said howitzer.

Had it been some other sort of "memorial", the kids probably wouldn't have been curious, we wouldn't have sat down to eat ice cream, and we wouldn't have had that conversation.

Having that tangible connection to the past though made for a very effective memorial.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 09:55:16 by Not a Sig Op »

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2019, 10:31:50 »
Just a small nuance to gcclarke's last post: It is cenotaphs we are to salute, not "memorials". There is a difference. You can have cenotaphs with or without memorials made of vehicles around them - but only salute the cenotaphs.

I used to have to do that, as an illustration, whenever I crossed the Place du Canada park in Montreal on my way to and from the bus depot: You have a cenotaph, and on either sides, a 40-pounder from WWII and a gun mount and gun from the Boer war. You salute the cenotaph, not the guns, and without the cenotaph's presence, you wouldn't salute at all.   

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2019, 10:50:21 »
Quote from: gcclarke
Honestly, no. I would not say there is a difference. A memorial needs to look like it's a memorial, not a vehicle. It needs to be clear at first (or at least second) glance that the purpose of the object is to commemorate the dead. Parts of vehicles or vehicles themselves can be incorporated into memorials, sure. Props, anchors, etc. Or, say, depictions of vehicles. Something like a statue depicting the burnt out husk of a tank could do the trick. Or this unique memorial in Lebanon.
But just the vehicles themselves, even if with a few plaques, or in a park with other memorials? No, I don't think that's effectively serving the purpose.

Fair enough. But you posted a picture of a monument [Hope for Peace Monument  made to celebrate the end of the Lebanese Civil War in 1990] Not a memorial.

Maybe it's semantics.
Quote
Monument
A monument is a type of - usually three-dimensional - structure that was explicitly created to commemorate a person or event, or which has become relevant to a social group as a part of their remembrance of historic times or cultural heritage, due to its artistic, historical, political, technical or architectural importance. Examples of monuments include statues, (war) memorials, historical buildings, archeological sites, and cultural assets. If there is a public interest in its preservation, a monument can for example be listed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Memorial

A memorial is an object which serves as a focus for memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event. Popular forms of memorials include landmark objects or art objects such as sculptures, statues or fountains, and even entire parks.

The whole park is a memorial because it's literally designated a memorial park. It serves as a focus to remember the members of town who died in various conflicts.

When you look at the items placed in the park it's very hard to not recognize that it's a memorial park. The cougar is a more modern addition which can be said to easily reflect a memorial to our generation including those passing away in training during the cold war and on peacekeeping operations.


I think Scott nailed it perfectly. The majority of people don't have a problem with it. It's a select few in town who are bothered by it. Of course the media thrives on outrage so they'll pick up on their complaints.

I have a feeling the same people opposed to the vehicle going up in town are of the same mindset of the people wanting to tear down various statues- and I think that has to do with the Liberal arts programs proximity.


Quote
I mean, let's put it this way: we're all supposed to salute war memorials, right? I expect said memorials to be designed in a manner that I can actually tell when approaching them that they are war memorials, rather than being expected to go up and read every plaque, to be able to tell the difference between this vehicle that's supposedly a memorial and this other one that's just there to look cool.
Memorial parks are a thing though. You can tell you're approaching it because there's a sign that will say "memorial park". I'm not sure if that means you should salute every plaque, just salute the sign or walk around in the salute position.

Quote
Form should follow function. Memorials that aren't recognizable as such are failing to attain their purported goal.
I think Not a Sig Op brings up a great point. Plaques and little write ups are easy to walk past and miss or not really interest kids or young adults.
Full size decommissioned vehicles are a tangible, very clear reminders of what our service members have employed at home and abroad in order to give the people walking around the park the freedoms they're enjoying.


My last take on the issue is that if decommissioned armored vehicles upset people (in a memorial park) they should try getting blown up in one and see how that feels. Everyone in Canada loves their freedoms- not everyone is willing to pay for them though. Hopefully the town decides to put it up.

And then add a LAV, Seaking and something else Navy-ish  ;D
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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2019, 11:49:17 »
And then add a LAV, Seaking and something else Navy-ish  ;D

And one of these. Complete with water tank trailer. Their Parks Dept. can keep it re-filled with cold, fresh drinking water for when their kids get de-hydrated from playing on these long, hot summer days.  :)

« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 11:53:05 by mariomike »

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2019, 23:21:27 »
And one of these. Complete with water tank trailer. Their Parks Dept. can keep it re-filled with cold, fresh drinking water for when their kids get de-hydrated from playing on these long, hot summer days.  :)

To heck with that... I want one of those for my unit to use on exercise!
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2019, 10:09:29 »
I agree with your statement as a whole; but I feel the need to point out that we do not have "Free Speech" in this country.  We have freedom of expression.  Pedantic, it could be argued.  But we need to learn to distance ourselves and our rights from those of our southern neighbors.

It could be argued that we, in fact, have nothing like free speech.

Your right we have "freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication"

Which I would argue is much more absolute as it covers not only speech, but other forms and modes of communications such as writings, art, internet, tv, radio, etc.

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2019, 15:56:02 »
July 2, 2019

Quote
Hussars opt to rescind gift of armoured military vehicle to Sackville, N.B.
https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/mobile/hussars-opt-to-rescind-gift-of-armoured-military-vehicle-to-sackville-n-b-1.4491662?cache=yes?clipId=104062
In a letter addressed to the town of Sackville, the 8th Canadian Hussars decided to withdraw their donation of an armoured vehicle.

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2019, 22:25:45 »
July 2, 2019

That's a damned shame and a loss for the city.

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2019, 13:15:44 »
For reference to the discussion,

Quote
Mohawk Grand Chief speaks out against installing Cougar in Sackville’s Memorial Park
https://warktimes.com/2019/07/05/mohawk-grand-chief-speaks-out-against-installing-cougar-in-sackvilles-memorial-park/
The Grand Chief of the Mohawk First Nation at Kanesatake, Quebec is urging the 8th Canadian Hussars to stand by its decision to withdraw the gift of a Cougar armoured personnel carrier for display in Sackville’s Memorial Park.

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2019, 14:35:56 »
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