Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle - RG-31, LAV Coyote, and (partial) G-Wagon Replacement

[Eye In The Sky]

I agree that the vehicle doesn't look like it has much room for stores or creature comforts like a boiling vessel. However, reserve recce units
tend not to need to be self-sustaining in the field for much beyond 24 - 48 hours, so they could probably make do with only enough room to store two days' worth of rations and water plus a Coleman stove or two.

6 pers, dismtd OP screen.  Need 2 x sleeping bags.  extra socks/t shirts/gitch & 1 x spare combat ea;  1 x duffle bag worth of stuff per crew.  Get rid of the old 2 burner stove for space if required for space.  MSR Whisperlite will do fine.  1 x pressure cooker.  rats, water, batteries, ammo, radios etc would take up the rest of the space.  Heck, add a small trailer if you really need it.  Very easy to estab and occupy the screen for 72 hours if you cut out the non-essentials.  Anything beyond 72, you have your RV for 49C or whoever to drop off the stuff you need, a relatively short hump back to your Base and you're good to go again (except for being sleep-fucked).  It is really easy to chuck an extra jerry can of water between your legs for the drive in.  On ex, for morale, do crew cooked rat drops every 2nd day in the RV.  Voila.

And...I didn't meant VBL for just Res mud recce.  Embed it into D Sqn and 60 Tp as well.  A TOW, AT mine, or round from any MBT is going to take out a CRV anyways.  Harder for them to find you to hit you if they can't hear or see you.

:2c:

 

[Kirkhill]

6 pers, dismtd OP screen.  Need 2 x sleeping bags.  extra socks/t shirts/gitch & 1 x spare combat ea;  1 x duffle bag worth of stuff per crew.  Get rid of the old 2 burner stove for space if required for space.  MSR Whisperlite will do fine.  1 x pressure cooker.  rats, water, batteries, ammo, radios etc would take up the rest of the space.  Heck, add a small trailer if you really need it.  Very easy to estab and occupy the screen for 72 hours if you cut out the non-essentials.  Anything beyond 72, you have your RV for 49C or whoever to drop off the stuff you need, a relatively short hump back to your Base and you're good to go again (except for being sleep-fucked).  It is really easy to chuck an extra jerry can of water between your legs for the drive in.  On ex, for morale, do crew cooked rat drops every 2nd day in the RV.  Voila.

And...I didn't meant VBL for just Res mud recce.  Embed it into D Sqn and 60 Tp as well.  A TOW, AT mine, or round from any MBT is going to take out a CRV anyways.  Harder for them to find you to hit you if they can't hear or see you.

:2c:

Just curious.

Do you need to jam 6 pers into one vehicle?  Or am I misreading you?  What is wrong with the original French model (replicated in Canadian Lynxes and British CVRs of 2 vehicles with 3 pers each?

 

[cavalryman]

Just curious.

Do you need to jam 6 pers into one vehicle?  Or am I misreading you?  What is wrong with the original French model (replicated in Canadian Lynxes and British CVRs of 2 vehicles with 3 pers each?

Recce works in 2 car patrols, not as single cars, ergo 3 troopers per car = 6

 

[Kirkhill]

Recce works in 2 car patrols, not as single cars, ergo 3 troopers per car = 6

Thanks for the clarification. Appreciated.

 

[Underway]

Doing a bit of digging around for armoured recce vehicles I came up with a very different set of lists and obviously approaches to recce.

US Marines, Australia us the LAV-25 for their recce elements, Australia used to use a Land Rover as well but has discontinued in favour of the G-Wagon.  The Aussies program to buy new recce vehicles are looking at the LAV 6.0 as a possible replacement for the LAV-25 so they are considering heavier recce elements than they currently have.

US Army uses Bradley's and Strykers.  The Stryker recce elements include an attached UAV call sign.

Germans and Dutch use Fennek's, and for "light recce" with the Germans the Dingo (with a bunch of variants like ground surface radar etc...).

British will be using a CV90 variant based upon their new vehicle competition, but are currently using the Scimitar.

Seems to me like a TAPV will be lighter than most vehicles listed here (Strykers, LAV's).  Why use a LAV for recce if its so damn heavy, big, noisy etc... and has all the flaws that have been listed earlier?  Only the Dutch/Germans seem to want to do recce with a doctrine similar to the "Canadian" way even though the Dingo is also relatively large vehicle.  Are other recce elements from other countries supposed to fight and not give way?  Perhaps everyone else knows something that we don't?  And if so isn't the TAPV close to the LAV-25 than the Fennek?  Or is it a neither fish nor fowl argument?

 

[blackberet17]

The Fennek appears to be a decent light recce vehicle (just from reading a few sites, incl http://www.armyrecognition.com/germany_german_army_wheeled_armoured_vehicle_uk/fennek_kmw_4x4_reconnaissance_armoured_vehicle_technical_data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video.html).

The Dingo sounds like a TAPV on steroids.

At least the Fennek has the low profile, basic armour, maneuverability, and observation suite (incl the windows forward) to be a more suitable "sneak and peek" veh than the TAPV.

Interesting how the Dingo 2 at 8.8 to 11 tons is almost half the weight of the TAPV (almost 15 000kg or 16 US tons). I haven't read all the specs, but yikes.

 

[Kirkhill]

https://www.facebook.com/ToyoTires/videos/1047629058625022/

George Wallace!  This ones for you.  [

 

[George Wallace]

Saw that.  Was wondering what kind of gun they had mounted on it, until they shot out the grappling hook to get up that hill.  Definitely has a lot of mods on it.

 

[Kirkhill]

Did the original Ferret have "free-wheeling" spares?  I thought that was kind of a cool feature on the Toyo version - reduces the risk of high-centering.

 

[George Wallace]

It only had one spare, and it was fixed. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

very much a Soviet and interwar feature, although as I recall the DAF trucks similar

 

[Kirkhill]

I recall the BRDMs have retractable belly wheels and I seem to recall a Dutch recce car with high axle, metal shod wheels that were powered sitting in about the same location as that shown on the Toyo Ferret.  But both of those added mechanical complexity and weight.  I like the relatively simple solution of just allowing the "spares" to free-wheel.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It only had one spare, and it was fixed.

With a 22 beer can stowage bin in the centre.  ;D  The driver and CC would have to down the other two during stowage.

We had Michelin(?) run flats. I don't think the Toyos are runflats.

 

[George Wallace]

With a 22 beer can stowage bin in the centre.  ;D  The driver and CC would have to down the other two during stowage.

We had Michelin(?) run flats. I don't think the Toyos are runflats.

Sadly the days that we bombed up with Green Grenades (Blue, depending on location) are long gone.

[

 

[MilEME09]

Sadly the days that we bombed up with Green Grenades (Blue, depending on location) are long gone.

[

and yet vehicles still have space for them, procurement priorities aren't matching reality again eh?

 

[George Wallace]

and yet vehicles still have space for them, procurement priorities aren't matching reality again eh?

They have thought of installing microwaves in  some vehicles these days, but not coolers specifically designed to maintain the grenades at a properly constant and cool temperature. 

 

[Eland2]

The Fennek appears to be a decent light recce vehicle (just from reading a few sites, incl http://www.armyrecognition.com/germany_german_army_wheeled_armoured_vehicle_uk/fennek_kmw_4x4_reconnaissance_armoured_vehicle_technical_data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video.html).

The Dingo sounds like a TAPV on steroids.

At least the Fennek has the low profile, basic armour, maneuverability, and observation suite (incl the windows forward) to be a more suitable "sneak and peek" veh than the TAPV.

Interesting how the Dingo 2 at 8.8 to 11 tons is almost half the weight of the TAPV (almost 15 000kg or 16 US tons). I haven't read all the specs, but yikes.

The Fennek indeed does appear to be a decent recce vehicle, although I wonder how well it stands up to mines or IED's. From the way it is configured, it's definitely meant for classic sneak 'n peek mud recce taskings.

The Fennek was designed long before IED's became a feature of the tactical landscape, so to speak, and from just looking at it, I can't see any indication that it has any anti-IED protective features. That said, the Germans and the Dutch seem to have been able to use their Fenneks in Afghanistan with a fair bit of success, although I don't know how often they encountered IED threats in their area of operations.

Personally, I think the Fennek would be a fantastic vehicle for reserve armoured recce units, and an excellent replacement for the G-Wagens they currently use. The Fennek has a lot more payload capability and is designed to operate for up to five days without needing replenishment of POL and other stores.

 

[Jarnhamar]

With the tech level and availability of STANO/ISTAR in the world today isn't it much harder for recce elements to hide and employ stealth? Coupled with the battlefield being saturated with portable anti-armor weapons (thanks Russia and USA) wouldn't it make more sense to lean towards more heavily armored vehicles used in a recce role. With beefed up surveillance and comms packages.

 

[George Wallace]

With the tech level and availability of STANO/ISTAR in the world today isn't it much harder for recce elements to hide and employ stealth? Coupled with the battlefield being saturated with portable anti-armor weapons (thanks Russia and USA) wouldn't it make more sense to lean towards more heavily armored vehicles used in a recce role. With beefed up surveillance and comms packages.

Surveillance is not up front with the Fighting Echelons.  They are "in depth".  They "look over".

 

[George Wallace]

The Fennek indeed does appear to be a decent recce vehicle, although I wonder how well it stands up to mines or IED's. From the way it is configured, it's definitely meant for classic sneak 'n peek mud recce taskings.

How about the Wiesel 2?

Wiesel 2 AWC - Argus reconnaissance vehicle